Spoiler Alert! Avoid reading this post if you haven’t seen The Avengers.
No really, look away!
O.k., let’s talk about The Avengers, the highest grossing movie so far this year, and the movie on track to potentially unseat James Cameron’s Avatar as highest grossing movie of all time. Specifically, I want to talk about the writing and Loki, the film’s key villain. More specifically, I want to explain how Joss Whedon managed to write the perfect Xanatos Gambit.
For those who don’t know or didn’t click the link above, a Xanatos Gambit (named for the villain Xanatos from Disney’s Gargoyles cartoon) is a plan that literally cannot fail because win or lose, the villain wins. This is one of those “I wanted you to beat me all along” scenarios, where defeating the villain somehow means the hero still loses. This isn’t changing your plans to compensate or getting lucky, this is planning all along for every possible outcome to lead to what you want. And Loki in the Avengers does so perfectly.
First, let’s get some background on Loki, God of Mischief and Lies. Check out that title – he’s the god of lies. Now in both the Marvel cinematic and comic book universes, being a “god” doesn’t really make you the embodiment of whatever you’re the god of; the comic book universe DOES have those things (Death, Eternity, Aeon, etc.) and the cinematic universe may gain those things (based on the Thanos cameo), but generally Thor is not the embodiment of thunder, and Hercules isn’t the embodiment of strength, etc. It’s just what they’re really good at, because they are actually alien beings from another dimension. Loki, then, is not the embodiment of lies and mischief, but he’s really good at it.
Loki really has only one goal in life – take over Asgard. He wants to rule. He feels Thor, his half brother, is not fit to take over for Odin and he wants that power for himself. Loki does not care one wit about Midgard (aka Earth). He’ll put it in peril to distract Thor, but Loki is all about controlling Asgard. Re-read those last two sentences – Loki doesn’t care about Earth! So why, in The Avengers, is he trying to take over? That very question is asked by Tony Stark during the penthouse scene. Tony comes very close to puzzling it out, but Loki distracts him with his villainy goodness (badness?). Why does Loki was to rule Earth? And what Earth would be left to rule with the Chitauri tearing it all up? What throne is he looking for?
The answer, of course, is that Loki doesn’t want to rule Earth. He doesn’t care about it. He never did. He allowed himself to be captured, he allowed himself to be defeated (and yeah, Hulk smashed him good, but he didn’t have to stick around for the big fight). It was all part of his plan.
Let’s examine that plan: first, Loki appears and steals the tesseract. Why? Well, to set things in motion. He knew stealing the cube would cause Nick Fury to call in the Avengers. Remember the ending of Thor – he’s been spying on the whole operation for some time now. Then, Loki gets captured. He clearly could have escaped, but instead he let himself be taken. Cap and Tony mention this on the Quinjet just before Thor shows up, and Black Widow eventually gets from Loki what his plan is – to set off the Hulk on the helicarrier. Only Loki is the god of lies…you think he really got played by the Black Widow? Nope, he WANTED them to know what the plan was. Then when it happens, and the Hulk goes berserk, they blame it on Loki and it really brings the team together.
And that’s what Loki wanted.
See, Loki wanted them to defeat the Chitauri. He wanted to lose the battle in New York. Why? So he could be taken back to Asgard. That was his plan all along. He never cared about conquering Earth. He never cared about defeating the Avengers. He just wanted a ride back to his home, the place he DOES want to conquer. And he got it, first class accommodations right back to Asgard. You can even see the smirk at the end when he’s got the gag on. It’s in his eyes. He won, and the heroes all thought they did. What better than to beat your enemies and make them think they won?
Now you may ask why Loki would betray Thanos in such a way. I mean, Big Purple is no one to mess around with. But I think Thanos was the co-architect of this plan. Why? Because he wants Loki back in Asgard too. Just sending him back wouldn’t work – Loki has to be brought back by Thor so that Odin does not suspect he’s still working with Thanos. See, with Loki back in Asgard, and knowing that Odin feels incredibly guilty about Loki in general and usually lets him off with little more than a slap to the wrist, Thanos has the perfect operative within striking distance of the one thing in the whole universe he REALLY wants (well, more than Death).
What is it Thanos wants? Did you miss it when you saw Thor? It’s easy to miss, but…
That’s right…in Odin’t vault is none other than the Infinity Gauntlet. And now Loki is right there, and he broke into it before without much trouble. Loki losing to the Avengers was the best possible outcome for both Loki, who can now try to take over Asgard again, and Thanos, who now has potential access to the Infinity Gauntlet.
The bad guys won this round, and meanwhile the heroes are off eating Shwarma and thinking they won.
And all of this points to one thing – Joss Whedon is a fucking genius. This is Machiavellian planning at its best, and the payoff clearly won’t come until at least Thor 2 or Avengers 2. It’s a perfect set up, and with luck we’ll eventually see that the “win” in the Avengers was actually a loss. Of course, that’s not to say the heroes didn’t really win anything. They did…because while the battle was nothing more than an elaborate smoke and mirrors to get Loki back to Asgard, the formation of the Avengers is actually the biggest win for the side of good you could hope for.
It’s all about the long game, and writers who understand and can use it.
The Mask of Reason 
Thank you! I have been trying to tell, well, everyone I know that he MEANT to lose for some reason–no one would believe me! (My sis just thought he went insane in space or something…) Anyway, I love how you present your ideas and evidence! I can’t wait to see the next Avenger/Thor movie–you will most likely be right!
What you fail to see and nobody else does as well is Odin to is the master chess player and has been doing it far longer then Loki has even drawn breath. Whom is to say it was even Odin standing there when Loki returned. Odin gave a eye to see the future and gain wisdom for the coming events.
So to see Loki and his tricks would be childs play. I see it as him just playing a long to teach him that being on the throne is not as easy as it looks. I would love to see Loki give up the throne of his own free will back to Odin and become a some what good guy. Would make for epic tales.
Reblogged this on wordsofconfession and commented:
Interesting. I didn’t know that the storyline was like that! 😀
Surely if all he wanted to do was be taken back to Asgard by Thor, he could have taken up Thor’s offer when they were on the dark cliffs on Earth, right in the first act of The Avengers, and right before that inane three-way fight between Thor/CapAm/IronMan.
He could have. In fact, he might have; he seemed to be “listening” to Thor, after all, but Iron Man interrupted the proceedings. Loki was arguing with Thor, yes, but if he’d just given in and said, “O.k., take me home”, Thor would have suspected something was up.
Besides, Loki likes his convoluted plans. Sometimes he just likes seeing them unfold.
A really good write up Andrew, though we can’t really say that it’s what will happen since this isn’t exactly Marvel 616. With Samuel L Jackson as Fury and the origins of the characters, I would say that this universe is a blend of both 616 & Ultimate. We only relate the infinity gauntlet & gems to Thanos since the 616 comic sez so. But in this universe, it might not be the case. If the gauntlet is really THAT important, it would have a bigger role (or at least mentioned) several times throughout the movies.
Also, Thanos wanted to court Mistress Death. That much is true, as he said it himself. What else can satisfy Death other than killing Asgardians? He would wipe the universe with his omnipotent power given by the gauntlet & gems, he would easily kill Asgardians. Loki definitely knows that it will happen if Thanos is given such powers. Loki’s smarter and better than that. He would rather wield it himself, rather than giving it to Thanos.
Or it could be like that, Loki just wants the gauntlet for himself (after knowing what it actually does from Thanos or Thanos’ servants). He originally didn’t know the value or power since it’s just there sitting idly in Odin’s trophy room
Well, Loki may be working for Thanos, but he’s still Loki, so sure, he’ll help Big Purple get the job done, but only if it benefits him, and only if he has a way to take over.
The thing is, I’ve watched the movies more than twice now and I’m convinced your theory has a few problems with it. Firstly and probably most prominently, Loki wants to rule over Asgard and not earth. That much is certain, but regardless whether or not Loki makes it back to his world, I doubt he’ll have the capability to take over Asgard without Thor thwarting his plans just like before.
Now, the reason why he wants earth ruled (BY THE ALIENS, NOT HIMSELF) is due to a preexisting pact(IT’S IN THE MOVIE) between them and Loki. Tesseract allows aliens to access earth, aliens rule earth (thus fulfilling Loki’s part of the bargain), aliens support Loki in taking over Asgard – because, let’s face it, there’s no way Loki will be able to take over AND hold Asgard alone without ol’ brother smashing down the doors.
Ultimately, Loki needs alien help, and it’s big badass mr. purple over there that wants earth, the Chitauri being his subordinates. He smiles at the end because he revels in death and destruction (seeing as his master is ms. death incarnate) and relished in the thought that he would be given the opportunity to blow shit up. As for why he didn’t do that himself in the first place, I’d like to point out that almost every villain who can send out progressively stronger minions before going “If you want something done, you gotta do it yourself” does so.
There is no second point.
The link is a follow-up to my initial comment reply. If you have the time, read this after my seemingly ranty and adamant reply. https://maskofreason.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/very-good-writing-why-loki-won-in-the-avengers/#comment-692
Exactly. To quote another famous comic book character, “some people just want to watch the world burn.”
Exactly :D. Loki seems like he revels in as much mindf*ckery as possible. He seemed to be enjoying the guys fighting on the cliffs simply because it was amusing to see them be distracted. I like this article a lot 😀
Also, if he took that short-cut back to Asgaard, he would have missed out on forming an alliance with Thanos.
And again, a no-lose in any scenario. Incredible analysis, thank you so much for this!
would have been too obvious, he needed to seem like he was defeated out right and reluctantly taken home.
Yeah that’s why he leaves his septor,( the one thing that could close and destroy the portal) right next to the portal
The tesseract (ugh, probably didn’t spell that right) wasn’t with them at the time to transport them back to Asgard. Without it, ET doesn’t go home.
ROFL BOW …. hahahahahaha.
He couldn’t take Thor’s offer no matter what his ultimate goal was. He may have had a deeper plan with Thanos, but he still had an agreement with the Chitauri that THEY thought was real and that he couldn’t just walk away from. He had to give them their shot at earth first.
Loki would have no way of getting The Tesseract or the Infinity Gauntlet from Thanos if he had not forced the Avengers to assemble. Now when Thanos and The Avengers get down and boogie, he’ll sweep in and snag all the shiny!
No, because then he’d be on a tight watch for trying to take over earth. if he comes back puppy eyed, his dad will feel bad for him and let him go with a slap on the wrist.
Errr…so by *following through* with the attempted destruction of Earth (and being stopped), Odin will have *more* mercy on Loki upon return? Huh? I don’t think so.
Analogy: You’re a disobedient son about to steal your dad’s car for a joy ride. You’ve invited your friends over to joy ride with you. What scenario is going to yield your dad’s sympathy more: A) Crashing the car and being brought home by the cops? B) Aborting the joy ride early and fessing up to your dad immediately?
I actually think that there is a better analogy: You and your older brother are promised a car, once you are adult. Dad buys the car for the older one and the younger one does not get any. And the you get angry and sad and steal the car to have a ride yourself and clear your mind. Choose ending with more of daddy’s sympathy following: A) You run into a tree with it and you wake up in a hospital. B) Riding it back home, more mad at yourself than your father already.
In this analogy, Avengers are some sort of the tree and then the ambulance, that try to heal him in a hard way. If Odin feels guilty for not telling Loki about his true parents, then he might also feel responsible for what his son has become. And forgiving Loki is like forgiving himself in that case. You see my point?
Of course, Loki would want more action before he finally achieve his purpose. He’s a sadist-psychopath who would not want nothing short of anything spectacular.
their gods i bet Mrs. Odin is in the background whispering, “boys will be boys” and Odin just chuckles under his breath and then grounds loki until the next odin sleep cuz its a movie and it would end up that way haha
I read this whole thing. GENIUS. I’ve always liked the bad guys, (especially loki) and I’ve been sad that he lost. This just brought a whole new thought process into my mind. Amazing. Thank you 🙂
Yes, but then the plan wouldn’t work as well because the Heros wouldnt believe they won, and plus Loki likes killing people
That was Loki’s planning alone. Loki knows that Thanos is his greatest threat, even if he rules Asgard, Thanos could just walk in and kill everyone. By letting himself get captured, he allowed the Avengers to created, which is not only thing that could possibly stand a chance against Thanos, but would divert his interest away from Asgard(and the Infinity Guantlet) to Earth. That would give Loki more time to scheme and come up with another plan.
He was being controlled but found that because of the distance between him and thanos thanosis control weaked so he then set everything up like a big game of chess so that he would loose the attitude change after the portal opened and agin when it closed backs up my thery
Also he chose earth be cause he knew his brother would protect it and asgard held the one person he cared about………….his mom
very nice writing.
Totally Totally with except for Thanos being the co-architect- there’s that scene where the Chitauri minion tells Loki “There’s no world, no realm, no barren moon that you can go where we won’t find you.” What Thanos wants is the cube, and now he’s after Loki, too- perfect set up for a Thanos/Chitauri invasion of Asgard (where the Infinity Gauntlet is too!) where Thor needs to come as for the aid of the rest of the Avengers. That’s my theory at least. Well written!
brilliant!
Joss Wheedon is a GENIUS. I never thought of that!
Wishful thinking.
watch Avengers Assemble (the animated series) it plays out similarly, Loki was planning something bigger throughout the whole series. but ultimately, the heroes will still save the day,
Warning! TVTropes link. May potentially cause person to lose hours on the Internet.
I wish you’ve been there for me the first time I fell for it.
didn’t Loki try to kill Thor in the movie by dropping his canister down to earth? I mean it was a pretty genuine attempt at that, how would he be able to get back to Asgard if Thor died?
If Thor dies, Loki gets hauled back to Asgard to stand trial for the murder of Thor. If Thor escapes, he gets really pissed at Loki and really wants to bring him back to Asgard for some Asgardian justice.
I don’t believe for a second that Loki thought that would kill him. He certainly didn’t seem worried about being stuck in the thing himself, even after Fury explained what it could do. He just did that to screw with Big Brother, because he loves pissing in Thor’s coffee.
Hey Mask of Reason, first off, I want to say that this is an excellent theory and if it holds true, it might just be the plot for Thor 2.
But I don’t believe that Loki never wanted Earth. By the end of Thor, they’ve established that Loki himself doesn’t feel like he belongs on Asgard. He’s an outcast, son of an Ice Giant, the Asgardians’ mortal enemies. Moreover, if you look at a couple of Tom Hiddleston interviews, he regularly mentions that he’s structured Loki to be an wanderer in search of a home. And his Loki wants Earth to earn that respect and “love” that he never got from the Asgardians. Earth would have been his kingdom. So there’s reason to believe that Loki does does in fact WANT Earth. Not Asgard, which he cannot call home.
Then again, personally, I feel that Loki got taken down way too easily by the Avengers. The scheme as elaborate as what you’ve mentioned is more in tune with the comic-book Loki. The “grin” at the end of the movie really solidifies the ideas you’ve mentioned.
There’s no real reason Loki would want Earth. The people are, as he says, like ants to him. There’s nothing specific on Earth (that we have seen, anyway) that he would want, other than the tesseract which he already had, and besides, in Thor he goes to elaborate lengths to set himself up as not only king, but also savior of Asgard. He brings the frost giants in, lets their king (and his own father!) get close to Odin, and then kills him. All to appear to be the one who saves Asgard.
Loki is schemes within schemes. He certainly might want more than Asgard, but he does want Asgard. He wants to remake it in his own image.
Unfortunate overthinking, however. First, how does returning to Asgard as a prisoner for trying to destroy Earth (and Thor) leave him under less suspicion than simply appealing to Thor for return. Second, the essential element of a Xanatos gambit is that the villain can’t lose whatever the outcome; if the Avengers lose the fight on Earth, Thor is destroyed, Loki can’t return to Asgard, Thanos has no one close to the Infinity Gauntlet, and the Asgardians are likely hunting both Loki and Thanos for destroying Odin’s favored son. And what does Loki get out of the victory? Rule over a destroyed Earth that (as you point out) he didn’t care about when it was whole.
However, as a counterpoint, I would offer the following: Loki truly did want to win for the most important reason: hurting Thor. Loki — in all incarnations — is supremely jealous of his more favored brother. After the events of Thor (the movie), Loki is consumed with hatred and jealousy for Thor that has (as evidenced in Avengers) surpassed even his desire to rule Asgard. He wanted Earth, not to rule, but to destroy in order to make Thor suffer as he himself had suffered.
Ultimately, though, I think that Loki wins not because of flawed Machiavellian planning, but because he is most of all a creature of chaos. He wins because there was mayhem and dissarray on a massive scale; something he will live to surely sow another day.
At least, that’s my opinion.
But Joss Whedon is a genius, and his genius writing did wonders for making this movie SUPERAWESOMENESS!!! Especially the pacing. The man is an absolute genius at pacing movies.
But he never wanted to be king of Asgard. That’s not just something he says, it’s transparently obvious in his reaction to being proclaimed king in the Thor deleted scenes. He’s genuinely shocked and momentarily frightened by the idea (then his mind snaps and he begins his descent into truly villainous behaviour, but that’s neither here nor there). His ultimate goal was always to win acceptance and approval from Odin and the other Asgardians, not to rule over them. He did set himself up to be seen as the saviour, but he didn’t intentionally set himself up as king; it really did fall to him by circumstance.
Slap on the wrist? Odin banished Thor (his favourite, natural son and heir) for less. There’s no indication that Odin would go easy on Loki if he returned home.
Though frankly, there’s almost zero continuity between who Loki was and what he wanted in Thor and who he was and what he wanted in The Avengers. He goes from someone thinking he’s doing the right thing and that the ends justify the means to cartoonish sadism for its own sake.
I’d like to believe that TA gave him enough credit as a villain to be implying that he knew what he was doing and played everyone at least to some extent, but the writer/director said on the commentary that Natasha is supposed to have actually beaten him in their ‘battle of wits’ and his plan/skills really are that sad. He also said that he struggled with writing Loki because of how sympathetic a character he was in Thor, but that someone pointed out to him he could hand-wave it all by blaming it on Loki falling through the abyss between the worlds and going totally insane. So, he wanted to write lazily and found an excuse.
End being, we’re left with a villain who has no dignity and little real threat, and who is written as if we’re supposed to really hate him and love to see him get humiliated at every turn, but toward whom I, at least, struggle to feel much of anything besides disappointment they derailed such a great character this way. The film really struggles because of how pathetically he’s written, he’s not a strong enough threat and nothing really goes right for him after the very beginning of the film. It’s not simmering beneath the surface in an elaborate plan befitting a Trickster God, authorial intent says it’s genuinely that juevenile.
I agree with all that you said about Loki.
I agree with Kate. No amount of rationalization can obfuscate or correct the discontinuity created by the different visions of the creative teams involved in the two movies. I thought Thor was vastly superior to the usual drooling authoritarianism coming out of the Marvel studios these days (particularly in Iron Man) – ironic for a movie where much of the action takes place in a monarchy. Avengers is a return to the norm, and I find all the Whedon worship going around as inexplicable as Obama worship, but I think it comes from a similar place. People seem to want somebody infallible to look up to, so they invent convoluted theories about how underperformance is just part of a larger plan, and all will be fixed in the second term, or the sequel. The tone of this article is similar to LOCs to Marvel comics, where bright nerds, unable to wrap their sharp minds around anything of consequence, wrote in offering Stan Lee ways out of problems (that only they saw) that resulted from discontinuity of writers, or errors resulting in people simply forgetting the accumulation of lore. Maybe this guy is just trying to get a no-prize from Whedon. It’s really hard to care about what happens in any Marvel story anymore – rather than honoring the lore that has built up, when the house of cards gets too shaky or complicated, they just wipe it away with a relaunch – like Star Trek. It isn’t art, or culture, or mythology, it’s commerce. Whedon is a commercial writer, no doubt about that, but a genius? That’s a stretch.
Greetings, Andrew I can’t seem to find a contact for you? I’d like to offer a proposal you may be interested in,.,,
Loki would rather have Asgard. Remember Thor said a couple times in the movie that Loki was motivated by revenge.
Joss Whedon is the God of serial storytelling…
Though, since you classified this as a Xanatos Gambit, how would Loki get back to Asgard should the Avengers weren’t strong enough to defeat him and the Chitauri?
If Thor was in dire straights, daddy would likely ride to the rescue. Plus if the Chitauri won, Loki can then use the tesseract to launch a full invasion of Asgard from Midgard.
Or he could just use Earth as a bargaining chip.
“Hey Thor. I heard you love Earth. I’ll give it to you if you renounce all claims to the Throne of Asgard. In fact, have me crowned king right now, or I will squash it like a grapefruit.”
Or something like that. …Although it doesn’t seem convoluted enough for Loki….
Anyway, I LOVE this article. I really enjoy a good Xanatos Gambit. 😛
then he would have gotten the tesseract on his own, by force.
If loki is really that good and we’re going down this perfect plan gambit He did have the Professor build a shut off switch on the worm hole even the prof. seemed surprised saying something around, “i guess i knew what i was doing”
^ “if the Avengers”.
Reblogged this on WickedCrix Blog 2.0.
Reading this, I remembered one other bit to support this theory: remember what Loki said about how it must’ve cost a lot of energy for Odin to transport Thor to Earth with the bifrost still gone? So yep, it might’ve been Loki’s plan to get a free ride back — and nearer to the gauntlet — all alone.
Genius!
Great post! I’m not sure whether they’ll try to bring in the Infinity Gauntlet or stick with the Cosmi^H^H^H^H^H Tesseract (people seem to forget that that is how Thanos *first* conquered the Universe), but either way, I can’t wait. Thanos is one of my favorite characters in any medium, and I’m sure Joss was and is up to writing him as the far-sighted genius he is.
Interesting. I’ve also read a couple of theories on how Loki was, in addition to wielding the mind gem, himself being more or less controlled by Thanos. This, however, makes a lot of sense in its own right.
Great, now I can’t wait to see what’s actually going on here. No doubt it’ll be awesome! I’m sort of hoping that your theory is more or less correct, because that would provide something much more interesting for Loki’s character than the mindcontrol-theory, as that possibly only leads to something close to a redemption storyline.
Thanks for writing!
I’m sure Thanos was influencing him, though I don’t think it was direct mind control. More likely Thanos saw this young, lost, wandering, angry soul and thought, “Hmm… perfect tool.” The right words, some pulling of emotional strings, give him a bit more power than he’s ever had before and BOOM! You’ve got a minion who thinks he’s a partner. Loki’s smart and conniving as hell, but he can still be played, especially if one uses his own emotional instability against him. Mind control wasn’t even necessary.
That said, I also think Thanos underestimated Loki a bit, and that even when he’s being manipulated, Loki’s capable of surprising the person pulling the strings. I don’t doubt that he’ll be throwing everyone’s expectations on their heads again in subsequent movies, just as he kept doing in Thor.
I haven’t read much comics, and I’m not as versed in the Marvel ‘verse (…) as many other people. I do, however, enjoy discussing, analyzing and theorizing (if that’s even a word) movies and plots in general. This here was a very interesting read, and I suddenly feel the need to go and watch the movie (again – when is it coming out on DVD?) just so I can watch it with this in mind. I have a feeling I’d be smirking more.
If the avengers would have failed, and the world was overrun by the Chitauri, Loki would have been maybe granted the title ‘King of Earth’ but he would become, in reality, the 1st slave of the Aliens. That’s not an end that would sit well with a classy guy like Loki.
I was thinking that Loki’s master plan was really to extricate himself from the service of the Chitauri. If he, personally, wins Earth in the process, that’s a cherry on top. But his greatest fear is thralldom to the Aliens. There is a scene in the film where the alien sub-boss threatens Loki, even from across the cosmos. He can’t just run, he needs to initiate a war between the Chitauri and Humanity, and have the Chitauri loose. That’s why he tricked the Avengers into getting along with each other, because he needed them at their best to save him.
I’m not fully versed in the comic book tradition, so I think your analysis is more weighty then mine. But it was clear, even to me with a limited understanding of the universe, that Loki was after a different goal than conquest.
My thoughts exactly!
Great article. Unbelievable website development.
Nothing new in this article… I already got it figured out the moment the Avengers movie ended with a mouth-gagged Loki returning to Asgard with Thor. The appearance of Thanos in the mid-credits confirmed the connection of Loki’s return to Asgard and the Avenger’s sequel. You see, even before this movie was put to motion, the writers and the director had it all figured out… to the end, not only of the sequel, but of the whole “trilogy” as well. Yes, I believe it’s gonna be a trilogy since a “two”-logy is considered by Hollywood “incomplete.” It’s just that the viewers “usually” see the ANT’S POINT OF VIEW while they (writers) are already at the BIRD’S LEVEL. But thanks Andrew Black anyways for many others have been “enlightened” by your article.
Man, you really brought a lot of insight to this conversation. Good job Clark, you (allegedly) figured the storyline out while admonishing others who are not so privy to the Marvel Universe. You just sound like a false, pretentious prick.
Hahah, I was about to say that exact same thing. Thank god I refreshed the page so you could spare me.
Nothing new in this comment. I already figured out the moment the article ended that some anonymous commenter on the internet would have claimed to have thought of it first (but did not say anything until this article came out). Really, who would have thought that the writers know more about the story that the viewers! SHOCKING! But thanks Clark anyways for many others have been “enlightened” by your comment.
That wasn’t pretentious in the least.
I bet people give you a weird look when you explain your point of view and opinions. No one likes a smart ass clark! you couldn’t help yourself from making this post could you? “I already got it figured out the moment the Avengers movie ended” hahaha the writers must have had a plan this whole time!?! you thanked andrew for making a post that enlightened everyone but you haha you remind me of someone http://youtu.be/EwK9Zjy9h3Q
That is a fantastic theory. But I have to agree that Loki did want earth. I think he just saw it as a place that would be easy to conquer to prove he IS the rightful heir to the Asgardian throne. I think Loki still is desperate for daddy’s approval and is just downright sick of being overshadowed. Tom himself said in The Avengers, Loki is far more desperate and ruthless, and he did an amazing job of portraying that.
I also think that there was a lot more to Phil’s comment that Loki lacks conviction. He never sees things through and changes alliances like Mariah Carey changes shoes. Like in the Thor film, he gets Laufey into Asgard only to kill him. I think it was an elaborate scheme to win daddy’s favor.
But I really think you’re on to something. I think your theory leads into the next sequence of films easily.
And this I why I love Loki. He has so much depth.
Hi, just popping in to just say that I agree with this theory (albeit with a few kinks including that I do slightly think he might have wanted to be removed from the service of Thanos leading to him possibly being an ally of some sorts in Thor 2, but we’ll see because I could most definitely be wrong.)
Anyway, as far as Loki’s conviction (hence why I’m replying here) his lack of it would more suit this theory than go against it. Conviction has nothing to do with changing sides, it has to do with belief in something. In Thor, Loki had conviction in his claim to the throne (he still does) as well as his plan to get it. If Loki lacked conviction regarding his plan to take over Earth, it would be because he didn’t wholeheartedly believe in it or truly want to rule Earth.
Good theory! I too thought Loki looked pretty self satisfied at the end and suspected he wanted a way back home where he’ll play the wronged black sheep to everyone’s sympathy. As much as Thor is a hottie, he just doesn’t have the duplicity to stay ahead of Loki’s mischief.
I’m more a mythology-head, where my bro is the comic dude, so I always have difficulty with the comic portrayals of the Thor characters. Mythology Loki is a trickster god of chaos. He’d endlessly start stuff, like he did in The Avengers, then when some other group took power and put in order, he’d smash that to bits again. He works independently, spurring painfully quick evolution and advancement through destruction and change. But then my brother reminds me that the comic series works differently, and that Loki is a brilliant schemer looking to rule.
Still loved the movie!
He may be looking to rule, but it’s in his nature to fail at it, because he lacks the conviction or even the attention span to hold onto any rule for long – plus, he’d get bored. Regardless of how much he wants a kingdom in Marvel (I blame that, like a lot of things, on Odin’s upbringing), his nature is still that of a sower of chaos and discord who never allows things to stay put for long. The very act of his continually trying to snatch power ensures that no one else stays in power for long, and that the universe remains in upheaval and conflict. Just because he isn’t aware of his actual role in the universe doesn’t mean he isn’t fulfilling it, and beautifully. Look at what he’s already done starting shit with Asgard, Midgard, and now getting Thanos involved. And it’s only going to get crazier.
I dig it. I can see this totally happening mainly because I know Joss Whedon is a genius. But if he didn’t think of this, and this blog post is all your creation, you should be making movies. That is a genius outline of a plan! Major props.
The Doctor
Interesting…..I can see it happening, because I always thought something was just a bit off with the way the movie ended. Now to wait and see….
Perfect. Perfect, just perfect. A+. I knew something wasn’t clicking in my brain, I just couldn’t figure it out. I knew Loki couldn’t have been played that easily. I felt so embarrassed for him. I was thinking the whole time, “He couldn’t have possibly been this stupid?”. But yes. OH YES! Haha. This is brilliant. Really.
Exactly! I always felt that ending didn’t give justice to a schemer like Loki. It felt too contrived, too over done. Although normally this is to be expected in a third rate movie ,this is joss. I know he is a wonderful director so the ending left a bad taste in my mouth.
,
I totally noticed this, but I thought Loki wasn’t all that keen on the Chitauri. They do threaten to kill him if he doesn’t go through with their plan. So his real plan was to make the Chitauri think that he put 100% effort into helping them, but really he just wanted to escape them and get to Asgard to further his own plans.
True — I think the Chitauri were definitely means to an end and if Loki were going to lose it was definitely in his best interest to get caught, Xanatos Gambit or no.
Reblogged this on R of the P and commented:
Thought-provoking. Definitely thinking about the movie again. Can’t wait until I can buy it on DVD and plow through the extras and consider it from all angles!
may i point out one thing
is thor loki’s half brother? i thought he was his step brother? (i thought they werent related by blood)
besides that, great theory! loved the read. also love the discussion its building up.
Yeah, but Whiplash’s Xanatos Gambit in Iron Man 2 was really obvious: (Russian accent) You lose!!
I think the half-brother comment must come from a source other than the movies (like the comics or something??) because in the films loki is definitely not related by blood to thor. i mean we saw odin find an ice giant baby by complete accident.
Anyway I love this Loki-wins-at-life theory. I so hope it’s at least somewhat true in the movies to come!!!
Everyone seems to ignore that there is ANOTHER Marvel movie coming up… you’d think Spiderman would join the avengers… we MIGHT find that out sooner than we think.
I, too, am hoping against hope that Spider-man is folded into this universe, but the new movie is distributed by Columbia Pictures whereas Avengers was Walt Disney Pictures. Just as they can’t incorporate Fantastic Four or X-Men due to right issues (and who doesn’t dream of Chris Evans Human Torch clashing with Chris Evans Captain America), I doubt they have the rights to bring Spidey into this storyline.
On a more positive note, trailers for the Smazing Spider-man have almost explicitly said Peter’s parents were spies. So if the rights thing isn’t an issue, there’s a SHIELD connection right there.
Brilliant
Reblogged this on Muyosan and commented:
This is some great insight on The Avenger. Why can’t wait for part 2. Between, was that Doomsday at the end of the movie, after the credits? I know most people didn’t see that because they always leave the cinema hall once the credits start rolling. But if it was Doomsday than Thanks went to meet, The Avengers are in for deep shit.
Doomsday = DC comics (Superman, Justice League, etc)
That was Thanos, a Marvel comics character in love with the physical embodiment if Death and seeking to please her by slaughtering millions.
Ok. My bad
Ii like to get suggestions how to write good writing. you’re the right person I think.
Yes, I thought something similar. It’s definitely win-even-if-lose situation for Loki at the end of Avengers. Loki ending up in Asgard is the best end he could get. He’s on the ground he knows best, his home (regardless of what he says aloud) and let’s face it – Thor and Odin still love him, that’s a crack which will allow him to walk out of a prison soon, if he uses it. Odin seems to be fond of lessons rather than punishments. The game is still on. It’s all just a next step to ruling of Asgard. But I don’t agree with Thanos and Loki cooperating that far. I think that Loki took calculated gamble in co-working with him and wouldn’t want to do that longer than necessary. That Thanos might see more into Loki, than the god would have liked, so he counts on him regardless, that’s different matter. I think that one of the wins of being a prisoner of Asgard for Loki is, that he will be protected if necessary. Even if Thanos had better things to do than deal with him, the Chitauri leader didn’t look like his threat was hollow. I think that overall, Loki improvises more than you picture here. Too solid plans are not very good, because they fail on stiffness and if Loki is excelling in anything, then it’s flexibility of thought and manipulation of the moment. The Chitauri might have been good enough (even though he voiced his doubts pretty snidely very soon in the movie) and I bet he had some basic planning for that option too. He really tried to invade Earth, if not for it to be useful later, then to really piss off Thor and wound him. We shouldn’t forget that the bitter family love is really big drive for him. As Iron-man pointed out, Loki makes this personal. Did you see his face when he killed agent C.? He wants Thor to suffer as much pain as he did.
And here I should end it and probably write the rest to my own blog before I invade your space too much :] Anyway, it was pleasure to read, thank you for sharing your thoughts. :]
Maybe Loki wanted to lose to “escape” from Thanos and co? Loki does not like to be in someone’s shadow, obviously. And he was bossed around and threatened with torture. He didn’t really want to win, not for others, so he didn’t give his best, made sure Thanos didn’t get the cosmic cube.
I mean, Selvig really installed a fail-safe on his own so easily while he was under Loki’s command? I don’t think so. Loki lied about having the Cube when he was talking to “The Other” (I think) in space. He already had the Tesseract at that point and he didn’t tell them. He needed more time for the Avengers and SHIELD to ready themselves for a the Chitauri invasion (he already had all the info about SHIELD and everyone else from Barton at this point).
On Earth they could reach him (we saw it how he was contacted via the scepter), so he couldn’t just abandon the invasion plan, but if he “lost”, Thanos didn’t get more power. He needed someone else to stop the Chitauri, make it look like Loki was loyally doing what was ordered to do.
Maybe he just formed his full plans when Thor showed up, recognized that his brother was his escape from Thanos’ hands, that he would surely take both him and the Cube back to Asgard and that he would be safe to form new plans there, where Thanos couldn’t easily reach him.
So part 1, preparations for the invasion to fail. Part 2: Thor > chance to “escape” with the Cube.
But like you said… he couldn’t allow anyone to know that he wanted to be taken to Asgard, along with the Cube.
I don’t think Loki would be very willing to be under someone else’s command, so I think if his plan was to lose, it was not a plan that came from Thanos, but from Loki himself, who wanted to escape him.
I love you so much for posting this!
I was basically speculating on this myself, I so can’t wait for this storyline to play out beacause just dear lord I can’t even articulate! Ughghghfhfh!
This is just perfect writing.
I may come back with a more articulate post soon…
Those are my thoughts on Thanos…
Those were my thoughts after they cast for Malekith…
Feel free to rip into me I love a debate. C:
In response to your “thoughts on Thanos” link: they will not introduce Silver Surfer in this Marvel cinematic universe. (Btw, if comics is Earth-616, what number is movies?)
The Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four belong to another studio (even though Disney technically owns all of Marvel). Until those rights issues are resolved, they can’t incorporate the Silver Surfer.
On a note unrelated to the content of your articles, the light-colored font was very hard to read against the light background. I had to highlight the whole thing to actually see it. It was also really tiny, and that almost made me close the journal without reading it. (Not sure if that’s anything you can change, but I wanted to give you a heads-up since that would be a lousy reason for someone to avoid reading theories).
As for your predictions in the article itself: I think it’s unlikely that Silver Surfer will appear in any incarnation of The Avengers. Not because he doesn’t belong there, but because Fox currently holds the rights to the Fantastic 4 (and Silver Surfer, by proxy). I can’t see Fox surrendering the rights to Disney to preserve comic book continuity,but hey, I’ve been surprised before.
I would be interested to see if your other predictions work out.
That is absolutely something Joss Whedon would think of. He is the master of plot twists!
Interesting theory, only the future will tell.
This seems like an incredibly solid theory, but I think you underestimate the value of the Tesseract itself. If the entire goal was just to get Loki back to Asgard only, it could have been easily accomplished. I mean, if Odin was able to conjure Thor to Midgard then I’m sure Thanos could could done the same with Loki if that is all they wanted, but I believe the import thing was to get the cube itself back on Asgard. From the movies we know that the Tesseract is an object of great power, one that can be harnessed to make devastating weapons like Loki’s staff and the Hydra weapons; However, it is also used as a gateway from the other end of the universe. We see this when Loki originally appears in the Avengers and during the third act of the film as the Chitauri army attacks Earth. Also, as Hawkeye mentioned in the movie the cube seems to work like a door, and we already know what smirking purple bastard is on the other side of that door. So now the Tesseract gate points to Asgard, his minion (Loki) sits in waiting, and the Infinity Gauntlet is well within his grasp.
Wow! Now I’m excited for the Avengers 2 and Thor 2 !!
Thank you very much !
I love your theory. I didn’t realize the Infinity Gauntlet was in the weapons vault. I feel like something isn’t quite adding up, though. I think that Loki played the Other, but I suspect he was also played by Thanos. I think both of them have tricks up their sleeves. I still suspect that Loki actually used the Avengers to free himself from the Other and Thanos. I’m not sure that Thanos would have trusted knowledge of the Infinity Gauntlet to Loki, because Loki is just as likely to use it for his own means. I also suspect, due to the suffering he was put through, that Thanos actually expected Loki to lose or double-cross them for Asgard, and now he has Loki where he wants him. The Other can maybe torment him (not sure the mind connection thing can work without the scepter) and manipulate him now that he is in Asgard, but I don’t believe Loki was made aware of that part of the plan. So, in a way, both bad guys are double-crossing each other and it was a win-win for both of them with entirely different goals in mind. It’s like a venn diagram and a double xanatos gambit all in one.
Agree wityh everything, except his desire to rule. Rewatch Thor and pay attention to the Bifrost scene with Thor.
“I never wanted the throne, I only ever wanted to be your equal!” Yes, Loki feels Thor would make a mess of being king, but he didn’t do what he did to kick him out and get the throne for himself. “I had no idea father would banish him for what he did” <- Jotunheim was NOT just a ruse to get rid of Thor and put him in line to the thone, and you can see from their interactions, no matter how many times Loki is mean to Thor, he loves him. It's ODIN that Loki hates, it's Odin that Loki has tried and is still trying to prove himself to. Why did he try destroying Jotunheim? He tells us in the end: "I could have done it father (note, he's calling him Dad again, despite the Jotun heritage thing), I could have done it. For you!". You can see the hope in his eyes, and then see it die as Odin tells him no. Only then does he let go of Gugnir- without Odin's approval again, what reason is there for him to stay on Asgard? Why bother?
but why does he want to prove himself if he hated Odin?
Exactly the opposite of love is not hate it is indifference. To hate someone you need a personal close connection.
Exactly – ‘Thor’ made Loki’s desires a lot plainer and less aimless then they were in Avengers. That’s not due to Whedon’s genius – it’s just bad writing. He did not want to rule Asgard nor did he care about Earth. It was about revenge and hurting Thor the best way he knew how. In terms of why his actual plans made no sense, though, can’t really vouch for that…
I think the opposite is true – Loki loved Odin. Idolized him. Would do anything to look good in his eyes. Loki had the opportunity, at least twice during Thor, to have Odin dead. Once when Odin collapsed on the steps after their heated exchange (Loki reached out to him and called the guards for help when he easily could have offed the old man) and again in Odin’s chambers – how simple would it have been to allow Laufey to kill Odin?? Rather it was just a ruse to appear to be the hero, the savior of the only Father he’d ever known. I believe Loki is outraged that Odin seems to love Thor more than himself, and believes that he is smarter and more deserving of Odin’s love and the Throne of Asgard.
Can’t edit my comment but here it is. https://maskofreason.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/very-good-writing-why-loki-won-in-the-avengers/#comment-690
I’d like to add that I’m not saying that it isn’t still a Xanatos Gambit. Loki wanted to get hauled back to Asgard, I’m certain of that as you are. He probably still has some badass plans and it may or may not have something to do with aliens. *cue alien guy*
I’m just saying that never in the film was it implied, obviously or subtly, that Loki was trying to rule earth, rather he was fulfilling a bargain. One of the commenters even noted that scene where Loki was genuinely afraid of alien subjugation.
Another thing, although it would seem more awesome, I don’t think “it was his plan all along” like you worded in the article. Surely had the aliens triumphed and the avengers been defeated, he would rule Asgard regardless. No Avengers 2, period. Instead, I’d like to think of it as “PLAN B”, again corroborating with the Xanatos Gambit trope. It would be much easier to take over asgard without Thor and with a crazy-ass staff of f*cking power, is it not? That being said, I’m quick to dismiss Loki going “AHA. THAT’S WHAT I WANTED YOU TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE.” as Plan B would genuinely be a more difficult task. He’s more like “Drats, now it’ll be harder to take over Asgard. Oh, you bet your ass I’ll do it, but it’s gonna take some time.”
*end comment*
Reblogged this on Victoria Blogs About Random Stuff.
But if Loki wants to get back to Asgard, lead by Thor’s hand, why doesn’t he just go, “Okay, fine” when Thor appears suddenly and tells him to return to Asgard with him?
I agree Loki didn’t exactly get defeated. I think it’s obvious in the way that he asked for that drink now at the end of the movie. I think he was fine if things had gone either way, defeating the Earth or not. If he wins, then he has a new army to fight against Asgard. But when he lost, he got to break-away from the control of the Chitauri and perhaps they’d even invade Asgard to seek vengeance, thus creating big problems for Thor and Odin. Either way he got something I think he wanted.
I don’t think it was the plan all along with Thanos. If Loki had pretended to betray the Chitauri when Thor pleaded with him on top of Stark tower, that might have gone a long way to get him some leniency once back in Asgard. If he was seen as being repentant after causing all that destruction, it might be easier for him to manipulate a way to get to the Gauntlet for Thanos.
If Thanos wanted Loki in Asgard then there had to be an easier way. Also, if Thanos and Loki had this plan all along, then I don’t think that other guy Loki kept talking to from the Chitauri was in on it. Mostly, I think they really did want the Tesseract. It seems to be powerful and important and would probably go a long way to help them invade Asgard for the Infinity Gauntlet with Loki’s help. It’s possible that Thanos himself had a Plan B if the battle on Earth didn’t work out. And that is that they invade Asgard to get vengeance on Loki, and Loki would trade any number of things in the vault, including the Gauntlet, to appease them.
I don’t think Loki wants to rule Asgard so much as he wants to defeat Odin and Thor. At this point, knowing he could never have been the favored son, I think what Thor said in the Avengers is true, Loki wants revenge on them above all else. More to the point, I think Loki wants to prove he’s better than them. Not in a nice way.
Completely agree.
Reblogged this on Laura Don't Speak and commented:
Never would’ve occurred to me. I love it.
Reblogged this on blogging from the ether and commented:
They had me the second the mentioned David Xanatos. Also, I already guessed most of this, or at least that Loki had played them all. Now here’s to hoping Joss did this knowingly and continues to play along this line of thought in the future. Because I’d be super pleased if he did. Cause its perfect and brilliant and all that jazz.
Just throwing this out there to aid in the defense of “This was a Xanatos Gambit.” (If someone else pointed this out, I missed it.)
Someone pointed out that this wasn’t a Xanatos Gambit because if the Avengers didn’t defeat the aliens, then Loki’s pla would’ve been stopped.
But I have to point out that – if the aliens defeated the Avengers, then Thor would be out of the picture. Thus Asgard loses it’s best protector and the Loki’s rival for the throne is gone. And Loki (at least temporarily) would have had the Tessaract to open a gateway to Asgard.
So, even had the Avengers lost, Loki would have been in a very good position to rule Asgard.
They should so change the name Xanatos Gambit to Loki Wins Again.
And again, the point of a Xanatos Gambit is to create a scenario with many (all) possible outcomes leading to victory.
So, yes, there were EASIER ways for Loki to get back to Asgard (e.g. just accepting Thor’s offer). BUT the way Loki did pursue the path back to Asgard, left him with many possible ways to take over…and perhaps the way the movie unfolded wasn’t even the best scenario for Loki (i.e the one he really wanted the most). Yet he still knew that he had a path to victory.
Hence the grin.
Good analysis. I doubt as much thought was actually put into it as you’ve sussed out (Whedon’s good, but he’s only a cog in this machine), but if it turned out that way, it would be interesting.
That would explain why he wasn’t happy when Thor showed up the first time, because it was too soon to just give up, it would be too suspicious. That’s kind of weird though, that he’d risk something like helping the invasion of a potential future enemy just to get thrown in God jail. Seems like he could just terrorize the streets of a major city for an afternoon and still get sent back to Asgard. Seriously, way less of a chance of screwing things up.
Reblogged this on Type A Little Faster.
Great post. So we’ll have to wait and see if the captured-and-brought-into-the-SHIELD-airship-on-purpose was just foreshadowing the captured-and-brought-into Asgard-on-purpose sequel. You’ll get serious bragging rights if it comes to pass.
If anyone is interested, I wrote about The Avengers movie a few weeks ago in a very different vein: http://jessekavadlo.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/avengers-resemble/
I said this May 12 on Facebook. Just checked my timeline 😉
I think this article is a step in the right direction, but not enough. It’s obvious that the Avengers alone cannot stop Loki’s master plan.
They need to team up with Buffy and the Scoobies, Angel’s group, and the crew of the Firefly.
Errr..interesting theory but, IMO, over-analysis. Thor offered to go back to Asgard with him and seek reconciliation with Odin in the Avengers movie. The Trojan Horse strategy would have been a much better way to take over Asgard again (as he almost accomplished during the individual Thor movie), so I disagree. He was out for vengeance and he wanted to hurt Thor’s “precious” midgard.
Reblogged this on Geek But Not Dork and commented:
Oh, really?
On a separate note, I loved Phil Coulson and hate that he had to die to prove “shit just got real”.
I want Avengers 2 to reveal that the Phil that died was actually a Life Model Decoy with his memories. Stark even made an LMD joke early on, proving that the concept does exist here (even if it’s only a joke at this point).
I’m pretty sure he’s not dead. Why else would they have made a point of having Hill point out that Coulson’s Cap trading cards were “in his locker” when he was killed? I mean, sure, Fury could have smeared them with blood to pump up the drama, but when he alluded to using that as motivation for the team, I think he was referring more to Coulson’s “death.”
That seems like a huge leap in logic on your part. Maria Hill pointed out the cards were in Coulson’s locker because Fury had taken them out, smeared them with blood, and used them to make a dramatic point so he could manipulate Steve and Tony. There was really nothing there to indicate that we shouldn’t take that at face value.
Yeah, I’m with thestray. Fury said so himself why he bloodied the cards.
Oh my God. You explain well. 😮 Right when I thought, “Damn Loki, sucks for you.” Now, I’m like, “Damn Loki, you’re smart.” Joss Whedon is in fact a good writer 😀
It just goes to show how much of a fortune can be made when you structure the stories of these movies so that they interlock, the way they do in the comic books.
I can’t help bu think that it would be extremely hilarious if Joss Whedon wasn’t actually thinking along these lines when he wrote The Avengers….He probably was, but with everyone saying how he is a massive genius for thinking this up, it’s almost like BEGGING the “God of Irony” to just mess with everyone.
Valid point.
It’s kind of a bummer that the title is a spoiler. I haven’t seen the movie, yet, but saw this posted on Tumblr. I skipped reading the post…I’ll come back after I see the movie, I guess.
Go see it!!!
I have another tidbit to support the theory:
Dr. Erik Selvig says to Black Widow something along the lines of “I think I did know what I was doing. I built in a shut-down sequence.” In the movie, it seemed like a stroke of luck to the good-guys…
…or it was Loki’s mind-control that built in the shut down, to close off the invasion, which means the Avengers would only have mop-up work for the remaining chitauri and Loki would get captured.
I think Thanos was smiling in the end because – if you know Thanos well – all he wants is to fight the greatest warriors in the universe and kill them. For Lady Death. To prove his right to be her concubine and sit by her side. The Infinity Gauntlet, the Cosmic Cube … they are all just means to an end. To bring about massive death to the universe to quench his nihilistic thirst.
The fact that the Avengers – some weak punks from Earth – just creamed a powerful alien fighting force was proof that they are now ready to take on Thanos.
I do agree with your assessment that Loki actually got what he wanted – out of Thanos’ grasp and another chance to be right there in the midst of Asgard. Thor pities him, Odin believes in redemption. If he had won Earth, then he would have proven himself as ruler, and everything he said about humans wanting to be ruled would have been a huge gloat over Thor, who believes the exact opposite. Loki’s true motive – in the primary Marvel comic universe – is not necessarily to rule, but to put Thor under his boot. The Asgardian whose shadow he’s lived under all this time.
But you are right – Weadon wove this plot so intricately it’s nearly impossible to figure out what the next movie will be about, and we can speculate until that time.
GET A LIFE YOU IDIOTS
Well, at least they’re not wasting their time complaining about what a bunch of idiots are writing.
It’s a compelling theory, I could see something close to it being true, and it would suit Loki very well. But I’ll believe it when I see it. Fan theories often turn out just to be wishful thinking.
Well, we totally already knew that Joss Whedon rocks… 😉
I think you’re on to something here, though. I’ve never read any of the Thor comics (though I’ve always wanted to, so if you have a good starting point for me, please let me know), but I’m thinking about all of the little things in the movie — like Stark’s musing at Loki wanting Earth. The only thing is, after the credits Thanos says that he wonders what it will be like the second time the Asgardians face the humans. He says something like, “We were told they would be easy to conquer, that they want to be ruled. It will be interesting to see what will happen next time…”
Very, very well done. A great read and I totally agree. Reading your excitement made me love The Avengers even more. Fantastic points. It’s not perfect, but it works so well.
My favorite villain in all Marvel Comics is Mr. Sinister because because he’s a villain that thinks so far ahead that he plans in losing to win. Every time the X-Men fight him they end up defeating him, but losing so much.
You present Loki in a light that makes me love him more. I thought all of what you said at some level, but never at such depth. Thank you for writing this.
(as a side note you wrote: “Why does Loki was to rule Earth?” and I think you mean ‘want’ instead of ‘was’….)
As a writer I love the nuances you pointed out.
I can’t really agree with this: in Thor, it’s made clear that Loki’s goal was never the throne of Asgard, but to keep his idiot brother off of it and to prove himself deserving of being part of the royal family. I could see Loki just wanting to return to Asgard for whatever reason, but unless his father went into another convenient sleep, I don’t see a way he would become or want to become king.
^ Absolutely true. I think this was clearly stated in Thor…
Man, lots of people doing backflips here to try and provide justifications. It was a narrative requirement that Loki be in the vicinity of the Avengers so some of the exposition could get done, so we had Loki giving himself up for capture. Made no sense, of course. “But he wanted all of the Avengers together so the Hulk would destroy them all!” There would be ways of doing that without putting yourself in the middle of them – indeed, they *were* already together.
And yes, that’s a flat-out offer from Thor to Loki, “return with me to Asgard”, at the end of Act One. He doesn’t want to. Everyone here seems to be desperate to find a version of the film in which the motivations all make sense, like it’s a puzzle to be figured out. No puzzle: the motivations are poorly written. They couldn’t find a way to get the lines clean *and* fulfil the conventions and expectations of yer summer blockbuster crowd. “And then the Hulk suddenly catches Iron Man as he falls to the earth. Not previously known for his protective instincts.” Ah, that’ll be because Banner’s got time for Stark now. Because they’re a team now, see? Whereas when Banner was clearly enjoying the company and confidences of Black Widow, that didn’t rub off at all on the Hulk. Because then they weren’t a team, see? This is on a par with Trinity bringing Neo back to life by saying she loves him (or Elliot/E.T. in the same situation); it’s pure Hollywood hokum. They might as well use “It’s the end of the film, so things be going right” as their justification.
In summary: Having trouble working out what Loki wanted? SO WERE THE FILMMAKERS.
I absolutely could not have said it better myself. Spot on.
I’d like to point out a possible rebuttal for the Hulk’s completely different reactions between the time he changed with the Black Widow and the time he changed for the battle, as that is your main point. In the airship, he was blasted which caused a completely involuntary change. As you could see he was trying to fight it. Before the battle, his change was entirely of his own will. Joss Whedon, having a degree in film writing, would have extensive knowledge of literary devices and analysis. Therefore, his writing would most likely have at least some basic literary devices. Thus to the conclusion of my point. The difference in being forced versus voluntary change allowed for the loss of or retention of his, as in Banner’s, consciousness or free will, respectively.
So when he clouted Thor at the end, that was a conscious Banner choice?
I don’t know if you noticed but the scepter greatly influenced the Avengers when they were around it. And Banner even took it in his hand, so that’s why he couldn’t control himself.
And when they were fighting at the end, and he clouted Thor… do you really think it was a serious hit? Or what is your point? Banner was Hulk there, he was agressive if he wanted to but he didn’t attack anybody of them seriously and he didn’t want to rip Thor to pieces, did he?
Even there, Romanoff and Banner never really got along. The one scene with just the two of them she tricks him. Banner and Stark are shown to be probably the two best friends in the Avengers. It would make sense that a little bit of Banner was left in Hulk to get him to protect his friend while that same part didn’t flare up when he was with Black Widow. Why he didn’t fight Thor and Captain America is beyond me though.
Yeah, its all a set up for Avengers 3. I can’t wait. But what about the those aliens? Everyone thinks thier from space, but I’m betting they are from the Negative zone. The tesserat (or better known as the Cosmic Cube) opened a portal not to space but the negative zone. That is why Iron man ‘feel’ back to earth, that is why Thanos is floating on rocks. Since there is Thanos is Captain Mar-vel or Adam Warlock far behind?
He screwed those aliens over way too badly to have been in secret cahoots with them. He was also terrified of them and their random brain rapes.
Also, I think you’re assigning too much importance to the glove. I bet it was just an easter egg so that people who know what it is can oggle at it and reassert their perceived coolness.
Reblogged this on The Overused Signature.
Joss Whedon IS a genius. An under-appreciated writer sometimes, I think. I love how you analyzed and broke down Loki’s true intentions and plans. I can’t wait for Thor 2 to come out, and see how your theories carry over.
And as a side-note, Loki was my favorite character in The Avengers. He’s just so brilliantly cunning and I can’t get enough of his bravado. None other than the amazingly talented and versatile (not to mention gorgeous) Tom Hiddleston could play the infamous Loki.
– Esther
http://roseywinterrose.blogspot.com
dude DC comics has got to get their game on to match up with this film lol
This is highly unlikely and it has already been proven wrong from what we know of the Thor 2 film.
And if that was anyone’s Gambit, it’s Thanos’s.
Anyway, this fanon is not canon, so you are wrong.
Another flaw in your theory is that Whendon isn’t directing or writing Thor 2.
Interesting. I like the idea. But the plan seems a bit overly complex if all Loki really wanted to do is get back to Asgard without them kicking him back out. I’m sure he could of found much easier ways to get himself arrested by Thor.
So do you agree that Thanos also granted loki another great gift for his master plan: The gem on Loki staff/weapon, the very usefull Blue soul gem of the Mind, going home to the infinity gautlet waiting for it.
Good point, but you mean mind gem.
Soul gem is green. Mind gem is blue. Or maybe you are using soul as descriptive.
Pass.
Thank you! It’s about time someone pointed out that “Avengers” had a lot more going on behind the curtain than a fun, loud comic book flick. Having only seen it once, I can’t yet say what else there was roiling under the surface, if anything, but this is amazing insight all by itself.
Also, thank you for showing Loki in a whole new light. It’s a relief to know that Joss Whedon helped craft a truly exceptional villain. Again.
This just makes so much sense. Loki was so nonchalant about “losing.” His comment after he got his ass kicked… “I’ll have that drink now”… the look he had going back to Asgard… it’s all coming together.
I don’t agree about Loki wanting to conquer Asgard. The deal he made with the Frost Giants was to ruin Thor’s big day, because he was tired of growing up in his shadow. He never wanted the throne, although he obviously didn’t reject it when Odin fell into the “Odin sleep”. All he wanted was to get his father’s approval, and this is very clear when he kills Laufey, right before Odin is murdered. And when Loki was hanging off the bridge in the end, the only reason he let go of Thor was because his fater told him “no” (meaning that he would never get away with his plans, that he would never be good enough to gain his approval).
But I do agree that Loki is perhaps the most deliciously complex character in the whole Avengers universe. If you are not convinced, go to YouTube and watch the interviews where Tom Hiddleston talks about him. We should trust this guy; he is, after all, the person who knows the most about Loki, together with Joss Whedon 🙂
You must not read the comic books or watch the little comic book mini series where Loki wants to rule. It’s to force the fact that he’s doing what Thor’s supposed to do.
No, I haven’t read them. But I was speaking strictly about the movies, although I know, obviously, that these are based on the comic books, But you’re saying it yourself: if Loki is interested in ruling the Earth or Asgard, it’s because he wants to prove his father and brother wrong. He wants to show them that he can do what they’ve never considered he could do: live up to Thor’s merits.
I’m not saying that they’re a reason why Loki is as he is in the movie. I’m stating that the comic came first. Meaning Loki as he is in the comic is how they are portraying them in the film.
He wants control. He wants control because someone else has it. He wants it because Thor has it. He’s a spoiled child in that way. He has it. I want it. Loki isn’t complex in what he wants. He’s complex in how he goes about getting it.
Loki doesn’t love anyone in a way that would be considered brotherly of childlike. His sense of love is weird. He (as one can see in the film Thor slightly and in Avengers…when they’re talking on the hillside before Iron Man came in –one of my favorite parts) loves Thor in that he doesn’t want to kill Thor. He wants Thor out of his way.
I don’t think Loki cares about merits of what others think. I think he creates a merit that his brother believes to be good and tries to achieve it.
I understand that’s the case in the comics, but I also understand that the movies have taken some liberties and they don’t exactly follow the comics to the letter. If this is what the comic books state, this analysis and yours seem the most accurate, but what I get (being a person who hasn’t read the comics and who’s only seen the movies) is that Loki’s conquering ideas originate from his heartbreak (I belive that’s how Hiddleston refers to it), not just out of a whim.
But thank you for your explanation. It gets me to think why the hell I’ve never got my hands on the comics…
I agree with heartbreak. But his reaction was over the top and his reasoning to how to get what he wants is always a convoluted plan that makes him appear to be fantastical.
Comic books are Soap Operas for men.
Thor asks Loki to come back to Asgard the very first time he appears. On the mountain, and Loki declares that he will rule Midgard. This theory only works in one of two ways: 1. Loki thought it was the only way to get home and now he has to follow through or face the Chitari (which he will have to do anyway, now) or 2. Causing the formation of The Avengers means Thor will be on Midgard more and therefore Asgard will be less protected.
Without saying whether I think you are right or wrong, I will say this: If you look into comic book history, what you propose Thanos did is *precisely* the approach Thanos took in the comics with regard to The Magus. The Magus was a horrible villain–he and his Church had enslaved billions of souls. It was Thanos who planned for Adam Warlock to go into his own future and execute his future self before he could become The Magus. And only after this was done did Thanos reveal that as evil as he was, The Magus was still a champion of Life, and the only person capable of stopping Thanos’ plan to destroy the universe as a love offering to Death.
Personally I don’t think this movie was all that deep. Secondly I enjoyed the film but it is not Batman(Nolan’s Films). Thirdly yeah it may break records but contribute that to 3d, IMAX, and 2d showings(The Dark Knight Series shows only in IMAX and 2d, it doesn’t need the 3d gimmick). Back to the Avengers Plot: let’s say that all this which you are saying is true, nobody thought to actually put that much effort into the movie itself if you left out all this key information. Why hold punches and why basically make it to the point where The Hulk could basically foil any plan to stop the taking over of Earth. Hulk was the key and the most important character, not Loki. He was corny in Thor and he was corny in Avengers. So why feel the need to make him this important to the overall story when in the comic he constantly fights Thor for rule of Adgard. And always loses. I like how you explained your theory but I believe it’s all opinionated. Come on “a smirk with the gag on”. Even the transport back to Asgard means he’ll be locked up once they get there, so what are his chances of taking over again?
He does not always lose. He’s won many times. He just doesn’t keep the win due to many reasons. Your love for a second rate Iron Man is blinding you to what Avengers has done…crush the Dark Knight. The gimmick of the Joker wasn’t powerful enough to keep Avengers from winning.
Loki is not silly as Bane. why Nolan has picked Bane is beyond anyone who knows Batman Lore. Bane isn’t a character anyone knows about other than Batfanatics. He should have picked Harley Quinn and another female villain. And you know it. Bane is a poor choice and box office will prove it.
You obviously don’t examine movies because Joker wasn’t a gimmick and neither was the writing of Chris and Jonathon Nolan. Check their movies The Prestige, Memento, inception. All mind blowing movies that make you think. Not to mention The dark Knight. And if you think Bane will be pointless lets take a look at what the Nolan’s did for Ras Al Ghoul, he was not famous in the comics either but with Nolan writing his character Ghoul made for a hell of a villain. The Avengers lacked depth and the plot was silly, the movie was geared toward kids and it succeeded. It was entertaining and funny. The Dark Knight series are geared toward adults and they make you “think” as well as entertain. Hands down better writing, acting, and great action sequences. And without all the Gods and Aliens Mumbo Jumbo.
The reason the Joker Batman is a high grosser was because people knew of him. The reason the first Batman got beat by the Dark Knight is because of the unknown characters. If people don’t know the characters, writing cannot gather the money. I can give you a list of great films with great writing with unknown characters that made not a lot of money. And that’s the reason. Movies are visual. They’re not books. Books are based on writing ability. Movies are based on far more than how well it is written. And recognizing the characters is high on that list. If you have unknown actors or characters it’s going to take an aggressive marketing campaign to get anyone to see anything. The Dark Knight series takes itself far too seriously. The city is bland, the characters are almost as bland…except for The Joker…and it’s not for adults. It’s for pretentious adults, sure. And Bane is boring. All Batman fans know that and they know he’s far more boring than The Joker and they know that for sure. Don’t try to sell him as awesome. He pumps himself full of juice like some sort of body building douche. He’s not better than aliens. He is one.
Oh yes- is it not incredibly amazing? Of course, if Joss Wheedon wasn’t already showing his genius with both Firefly and Serenity, then I would be surprised- as it is though, The Avengers’ plot simply added another story to his already incredible resume, and also easily keeps him on board for any sequels or Marvel movies pertaining to that certain story. I think that would be Joss Wheedon’s personal Xanatos Gambit- as he has now pretty much ensured that he must at the very least write the script and story, if not direct the whole thing again… 😉 Go JW. 😀
Reblogged this on Thinksquad.
See, my take on the entire thing was that Loki was being mind-controlled by Thanos in exactly the same way he controlled Hawkeye and Selvig. It explains why at certain points in the movie he seemed to suddenly become aware of the horror of what was happening, only to “switch back” seconds later to not caring (examples include both times he talked to Thor alone, and when he was talking to Natasha before he got “angry” and threatened her). He also experienced a “mental re-calibration” (HULK SMASH) at the end, and proceeded to ask for a drink with a self-deprecating smile (which he would’ve done in Thor, but not at any point previously in the Avengers). It was as thought part of the time, in those moments, he was “himself,” more the way we saw him act in Thor: depressed and angry at being cheated, yes, but not completely psychopathic. But then Thanos would re-assert control, and he would have “a mind like a bag of cats” again.
Anyone think this is an interesting take?
If Loki thinks he’s going back to whatever passes for minimum-security Club Fed in Asgard, he may have another thing coming. In the Avengers:Earth’s Mightiest Heroes animated series, similar tomfoolery gets Loki sentenced to the roots of the World Tree, with Nidhogg the serpent gnawing on his head. I suspect movie-Loki is there, suffering the tortures of the damned or something.
I’m still not sure Loki was taken back to Asgard. Remember “Will you never not fall for that?”
Yes, but those are not clones. They’re mirages. At least that’s what it appears to be.
Watch the part when he is in Stuttgart, each Loki does its own thing, which means they could very well be clones…
Reblogged this on Musings Of A Mad Mind and commented:
This is BRILLIANT!!!!!! – and so True!
Pretty good… but it sort of begs the question as to why Loki wouldn’t simply have come back when Thor first drags him out of the plane and tells him to come back. You say Odin will be less suspicious of Loki if he’s imprisoned, but that’s because he can’t DO anything while imprisoned… your theory’s good, but there must be more to it than simply getting Loki back to Asgard, because he could have done that several ways without being under lock and key once he got there.
OK… but there’s a HUGE plot hole in this theory… Thanos WAS in search of a cosmic cube (tesseract) in the comics. It was a pit stop on his way to the ultimate power that culminated in him assembling the Infinity Gauntlet.
Remember, the Gauntlet was not some random cosmic artifact to be sought, Thanos himself did the research and uncovered the link between the gems, the ancients who wore them and how they would work together. HE BUILT THE GAUNTLET to hold the gems and its power dwarfed that of the cube. Continuing… if the gauntlet is on display in Asgard, it would necessarily be post-Thanos-Quest/Gauntlet… and after that little escapade, it was decreed that the gems could never again work in concert (by the Living Tribunal). Why else would the most powerful object in the universe be on display in a room where frost giants can easily bypass the defenses??? Asgard would be invincible, the Bifrost unncessary, Ragnarok forever forestalled, yadda yadda.
The notion that Loki had schemes within schemes is fine… and that Thanos was scheming to some end is fine too, but an Infinity Gauntlet play in this context would dramatically alter the comic storyline… and not in a good way.
Lastly, the Marvel Cinematic Universe takes place on Earth-199999 to distinguish it from the “standard”/Earth-616 universe and the Ultimates/Earth-1610 (which went WAY overboard on Tony Stark’s reworked origin).
OK, this was actually awesome. Until you rmember that when Thor first shows up, he openly tries to take Loki back to Asgard, and Loki blatantly says no
Loki never wants to take the easy way out.
Besides which, as has been pointed out already, Loki being captured is more believable than Loki having a sudden change of heart. Which scenario would be more believable to Odin:
A: Loki starts a plan for global domination. Thor shows up and says, “Loki, forget all this madness and come home.” Loki shrugs and says, “Okay,” and goes back to Asgard with Thor.
B: Loki Starts a plan for global domination. Thor and his human friends just baaaaaarely manage to defeat him and Thor drags him home to Asgard.
Seriously, which of those two scenarios is less likely to end with Odin keeping a REALLY close eye on Loki, thinking he’s faking it?
Great Article! It’s all so clear now. Something in the back of my mind made me feel like Loki never Really put up a good fight. I don’t recall seeing the gauntlet in Thor, but Im going to go look for it now.
My only thought is you never see Loki actually communicating with Thanos. He only spoke to his herald. This leads me to believe that Loki wasn’t actually in with Thanos.
Maybe it’s just one of those things I’m looking too much in to. Just like how Thor got back to Earth. At the end of Thor, he was trapped on Asgard. Suddenly with one mention of Black magic by Loki, and Thor is back! I wish there was something a little more creative there.
Still, Great Movie. Seen it twice so far. I will see it again ac ouple time before it leaves the theaters.
Really this is a textbook case of the law of unintended consequences…. yes Loki is back in Asgard and likely working for Thanos…. yes Odin is going to let his screw up son off the hook….AGAIN. Problem for Loki and Thanos is what they unintentionally created is a group that would become the biggest pain to them as well as Hydra… A.I.M….Masters of Evil… Skrulls… Kree…et al.
Avengers will fight for one another…. for Earth-Midgard and for Asgard.
I dunno about Loki getting off the hook… I mean, Odin banished Thor just for being a dick.
Loki is a murderer at this stage in the game. I think there are no warm welcomes waiting for him.
This is a great article! Do you mind if I translate it and post in the Russian Avengers community on diary.ru?
Oh, Christ, this is aggressively moronic. Whenever I read “Joss Whedon is a fucking genius”, I translate it as “I’ll defend anything Whedon does”, and I haven’t been wrong so far.
That’s because you don’t want to be wrong, not because you’re not.
Intriguing theory. Very much feint-within-a-feint. Loki’s style. Whedon’s style. Well-reasoned. I’m not putting all my chips on your number, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be pretty close…
I’ve heard speculation that the shwarma scene (I assume this is the after-credits one) is actually set before Loki is taken back. They’re taking their time and drawing it out because they won’t let Loki eat until they’re done. Loki is off-screen, where a number of the Avengers are staring during the scene…
I was wondering about this entire set-up, although in the end I saw the movie as presenting two alternate scenarios, giving the scriptwriters room to decide which direction they want to take Loki in future movies:
1) as you outline here, it’s an elaborate plan to get Loki in position in Asgard for when Thanos moves on the Infinity Guantlet and then the rest of the Universe, Earth/Asgard included, and Loki is in full agreement with the plan, wanting to rule Asgard, or
2) Loki wanted power, if he can’t have Asgard he’ll take what he can get (Earth, with the Other’s help) and build from there, but over the course of Avengers realizes he got in over his head (the discussion with Thor before Tony shows up, that moment mid-movie when he and the Other communicate telepathically and Loki has this look of “I don’t want to carry this through, but I have to put on a brave face and move forward on pain of my own death/torture”). So, by the end of the movie he’s just fine with being defeated. That gets him out of his obligation to the Other, but even more so he’s just tired of fighting, tired of lusting for power, and just wants to go the f*** home (the resignation in “I think I’ll have that drink now”).
So under this interpretation Loki’s still in Asgard, but if Thanos gets him involved in his plan it may be unwillingly, or he’s in a position, and makes the decision to, help Thor/Avengers with Thanos and heal his rift (or at least just finally come to terms with not being Odin’s favorite son) with Thor.
Loki may be the demigod who’s best at lying, but he’s also the one who lacks conviction (I love Coulson, can he have his own movie?). I can see the course of Avengers finally being enough to take the p**s out of Loki, make him realize he isn’t fit to rule anything, have his big soul-searching “I’ve seen the light!” moment, then join the other side and become a minor Avenger.
A long-game set-up for a conversion moment also kind of solves the problem of Loki never really come across as a truly evil villian in Avengers. So while written well, and played well by Tom M., the movie didn’t ring as deeply in the emotional department as some others. Loki’s misguided (“He’s adopted”), yes, has a hollow lust for power because he’s never really had anything else (being in Thor’s shadow, daddy issues), there’s fall-out from his plans he will have to deal with (Loki’s direct kill rate is only 80, though? (is that what Hill or Fury said?), the rest coming from the Chitauri army?) but not truly evil for evil sake.
Oustandingly badass post.
Er…I’m pretty sure Loki stole the terreact because Thanos wanted him to. And Thanos wanted the tesseract to open the portal for the Chitauri in a non-SHIELD-controlled area. As for the getting captured and taunting the Hulk, that could be the “distraction” mind-controlled Hawkeye asks for in addition to the eyeball. This is an interesting theory but unless/until Avengers 2 comes out it doesn’t do too well under Occam’s Razor.
I just kinda want to point out that Two Ravens (Presumably Odin’s ravens, Hugin and Munin) pass by Thor and Loki prior to Iron Man knocking Thor off the cliff. That means Odin was watching them then, and likely the whole time. I can’t imagine Daddy Dearest sitting around doing nothing to assist in stopping the Chitauri/Loki if he even SUSPECTED some sort of potential backlash on Asgard for Loki’s actions, win OR lose. He is the Allfather, after all.
That’s just so true! I saw it all, but I couldn’t describe like you did. My mind is blown.
So why when loki had the chance for thor to take him back to Asgard did he not go willingly
Oh God this is a great, valid theory. The thing is, our favorite writer likes to rule out valid fan theories such as these, so here’s hoping Whedon doesn’t read this. If you’re familiar with TvTropes, I’m sure you’re also familiar on where the term “Jossed” came from, yeah?
Well there is also a chancethat he might not even direct the sequel s, though I do hope.
Reblogged this on You Can't Take The Sky From Me and commented:
A very interesting read. I’d say it’s all very likely, nothing is an accident in a Joss Whedon production.
HI, I’m from Brazil! Its text it’s brilliant. Congratulations!
P.S: Sorry by the English, still i’m learning. Hugs 🙂
very interesting take on things. I think you’re right about thanos wanting the infinity gauntlet but if you look back into thor he only wants to be thor’s equal. He doesnt care which throne he gets as long as its on that will put his brother beneath him and if he were to rule a world that thor holds dear of course it would make thor upset and it would bother him and get under thors skin. If he were to rule asgard which is ment for thor to rule one day thor would be upset about it too. in thor he states “I never wanted the throne! I only ever wanted to be your equal!” Well in the avengers he only wants to bury thor in the dust now. He still has the same goals just more…well…aggressive. and he never even thought about the gauntlet because when he was in the base and was thinking back to the convo he had with the leader of the chitari he said basically if you dont give us the tesseract we will hunt you down and make you wish that we would just kill you. Loki went back to asgaurd because he knows right now it is the safest place for him. He probably doesnt even know that thanos plans to steal the gauntlet. He just knows that the chitari are pissed that he didnt keep his end of the deal and they are coming after him. He knows hat no matter how much dmage he does thor will do everything in his power to protect because thor thinks that loki’s actions are his fault. I think that Loki will have to help thor with whatever they have to defeat in the thor movie but at the end he recieves an offer to redeem himself and in order to do that he steals the gauntlet thus crushing thors hopes that his brother was finally coming back to him. Loki will bring thanos the gaunlet only after he recieves the command. Thanos is the master bhind this. Loki doesnt know what the hell is going on. The staff’s power had his mind all messed up but his original intentions still linger. I think loki will sink lower and lower until he has no choice but to wake up and clean the mess he has made. I thinks thats whats going to happen in the last avengers movie…but for now I think in thor 2 he will help his brother then double cross him once he’s earnewd his trust then in the next avengers they will focus on the team building and growing stronger and facing a few battles and then hinting at thanos again. then in the laston everything just turns into a big ball of fuck when thanos finally attacks and loki will turn on thanos and help the avengers. Maybe lose his life in the proces or get severely injured. (ihopeedoesntdiebecauseIlovehimsomuchohgod)
If Loki wanted to get back to Asgard? Why provoke the avengers into existance? Thor showed up on the scene way early in the movie and he could have just gone then. But instead he sticks around and makes things harder on himself in the long run? Because now he has this superhero force that he’ll have to reckon with the next time he tries something, which could have been completely avoided. . . I mean, perhaps there are unknowns that will make it all make sense but based on what we have, I don’t think Loki really wanted to get back to Asgard the whole time, because he had an easy shot and never took it until he created a seemingly insurmountable foe.
Yeah, and how would he be able to go home with Thor? Loki said himself: ” You need the cube to bring me home…” Yes, maybe Allfather can conjure some magic again to teleport both of them back. But just maybe.
That may explain why the Chitauri died at the end. They just were not needed anymore.
Before the portal was closed, the Chitauri were winning. And they could have still won, because they still had overwhelming superiority in numbers and tech.
And considering they were working for Thanos, their deaths may could have been a reward and not a punishment.
Reblogged this on Darth Fidux.
i dont think they would leave the infinity gauntlet just lying about like that in the vault. it was purely a fan-service easter egg type of deal that wont be heard from again.
as much as i want an infinity gauntlet adaptation it would be a stupid start to have it just be there guarded by one paltry “destroyer”(if it was replaced at all).
As evidenced by Loki and his telepathic meeting with the other, Loki is being coerced on some level and is NOT happy about this. Thus Loki is the one who engineers the revival of the Avengers initiative, because he WANTS the damned Chitauri defeated. Loki voluntarily “loses” this battle and returns with Thor back to Asgard, WITH THE TESSERACT, where he will be under a certain degree of protection. Of course, it can’t appear as if he orchestrated this. He was very seriously threatened and no doubt weasled his way out of it.
Do you think he left his septor lying on the ground, easily within Selvig’s sight, accidentally?? Also, the tesseract is a much desired object, in and of itself. Don’t underestimate its importance. Loki has managed to extricate himself from under Thanos’ thumb, defeat the Chitauri Army supplied to him (by maneuvering the Avengers), escape any retribution, and be safely returned to Asgard where he will face the lesser of the two punishments…AND remove the tesseract from Midgard and return it to Asgard! Brilliant!
So now the Guardians of the Galaxy film makes sense…
Very nice 😉
Also, there’s another very good possibility: Thanos, given his motivations, doesn’t just want the Infinity Gauntlet. He wants the Avengers there to fight him. Other comments also mention something I’d noticed. Loki was being controlled, and managed to sabotage it.
Really, everyone won *except* the Chitauri. Poor bastards.
wow very well written
Right you are! You totally put it all togheter, Thank you!! 😀 Odin will probably not keep his own son under lockup, not under bad circumstations anyway. And Thor, wants to help his brother, so Loki can easly play him too. I do believe that Loki will end up losing, for real, but not die. That would be to… normal somehow. all bad guys die or go to prison. Maybe there is something else for Loki? I do hope Loki have a bigger role in Thor 2, he´s awesome!! 😀
Oh wow. This is an amazing theory. Easily beats the one I thought of to incorporate spider-man into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I can’t wait to see Phase 2 set into motion!
I knew it! Thank you, really, I had tried to explain it to my family, but the little trolls nevers believed me. After this, they shut up.
Reblogged here, with my own commentary: http://callistansky.tumblr.com/post/27954823527/lokis-plan-all-along-mind-blown
I had seriously wondered about Loki when I was watching “The Avengers”. I think his personality is still the same as it was in “Thor”, but he just has a bigger axe to grind what with the constant betrayals he feels from Odin and Thor. I also re-watched as many interviews with Tom Hiddleston as I could find in order to decipher how Loki might be played in “Thor 2”. Not sure yet seeing as they don’t start filming until September. I think he’ll probably play it similarly, maybe with some twist that’s embedded in the storyline. But there’s no way that they could just completely shove Loki’s character off to the side either in “Thor 2” or possibly “Avengers 2”. He’s too interesting, complex, and popular. It’s golden. And he would be incredibly fascinating as a dynamic with the Avengers if he was on another angle, such as actually teaming (or at least using) the Avengers to get rid of Thanos, were he to get too powerful or the Gauntlet. Loki seems to have Plan A and Plan B, and like it was mentioned above, he has the potential to “win” in both.
You’re a motherfucking genius, Andy my friend.
And now Whedon is on board to finish this story that includes possibly many other upcoming Marvel movies (Guardians, Cap 2, Thor 2 etc.). I cant wait what will see in few coming years 🙂
I also agree totally about that, Loki’s big plan in Avengers movie really was just to be captured and make chaos among Avengers. He knew that he would not win the whole group alone and plan was just to fake defeat. He does not care about Chitauris/the Other 🙂 But he is worried about Thanos ofcourse and that’s why he’d rather be in Asgard when/if he comes to searh him and Gauntlet.
Reblogged this on DiHard and commented:
I was really confused as to why Loki was the bad guy in Thor and Avengers. Sure he can be bad but I viewed him as more chaotic good than evil. This is a pretty solid theory. Check it out!
Hello! I loved this post (and blog)
And i KNEW Loki wouldn’t give up that easy, first because it was never his true intetion conquer Earth, but then again, who would believe a crazy fangirl?! LOL
Well, if you gimme permission, I’d like to translate it to Portuguese (My first language), i’m sure people here would stop watching Avengers the same way
Thank You and Farewell
Thanos = a derivation of Thanatos = alternate spelling for Xanatos, the personification of death.
It feels like I’m commenting after all the initial hype, but I have a few of my own matters to add to the discussion. Firstly, I’d like to point out the article is brilliant, and it did help click the feeling I had in the back of my head after The Avengers that the victory wasn’t quite all it seemed and came a bit too easily to the team, and don’t get me wrong, I love the goodies in this movie much more than I sympathise with Loki, but I recognise Loki as a genius of plans and trickery that could make a scheme like this possible.
I have a feeling a Thanos plot most likely won’t come about until The Avengers 2, As in Thor 2 casting has already been confirmed for Malekith, a dark elf and notorious villain in Thor’s story arch’s previous portrayals by Marvel. On the issue of Loki and his schemes, I undoubtedly have faith that what ever drama unfolds with Malekith, it will be motivated by the trickster without fail but also will be a chance he uses to ‘redeem’ himself in the eyes of Odin and Thor. We can assume he get’s a pretty heavy sentence upon returning home from the chaos he caused on Earth, even with Odin’s more than lenient ways in the past. The man cast his own biological (and apparently more favoured) son out of Asgard for breaking a treaty in Jotunhiem back in Thor if we remember correctly! I think a slap on the wrist isn’t going to suffice for the near destruction and invasion of Midgard, a realm at peace with Asgard as much as Jotunhiem had once been.
Using whatever happens with Malekith as the ‘villain’, I’m sure there be a scene in Thor 2 where Loki has the opportunity to either help or hinder Thor and the rest of Asgard with the situation, I assume he’ll help to redeem himself in the people’s eyes and therefore put himself in an even safer, more prepared position for when his deal with Thanos eventually shows up. Being back in Asgard as a prisoner and with a sentence hanging over his head is one thing, but to have the chance to ‘redeem’ himself, and in turn make his underlying schemes further blinded from the eyes of Thor and Odin, I think Loki would leap to that chance.
Leaving Thanos until the second Avenger’s film would also leave more time for the crucial introduction of other potential teammates they’ve announced movies in development for, such as Ant-man, and maybe we’ll see a chance at the alignment of X-men into the team, if we remember Wolverine being a common member in practically every other format The Avengers team has ever been published in. Leaving Thanos out until The Avengers 2 leaves not only more options for Wheldon to play around with, if he continues directing, but also opens more ventures of economic revenue through the need for more and more Marvel movies to set up the be-all-end-all battle that will be when Thanos makes his presence known. Superhero films are an industry after all, remember this people, they’re milking us for our money no matter how happy viewers, including myself, are to give their dollars.
But never the less, I’m excited for all these promising Marvel titles. And the idea of Loki spinning so many plots into one is both intriguing and very clever of Wheldon, I can only hope he intentionally scripted The Avengers to be this way for risk of the fan base for it having more developed and promising ideas of scripting than him!
Cudos, Andrew, for your thought provoking entry. I can only hope the sequels of Thor and The Avengers can answer all our questions and prove that the Marvel movie Loki is just as slippery and clever as the comic Loki, and even cartoon version of him, were…
I don’t think this theory holds water at all… If Thanos and Loki merely wanted Thor to arrest Loki and take him to Asgard, why go through through such a large-case scenario to do that? It would been have enough for Loki to run some smaller scheme that would get Thor’s attention (kill some random people, for example), then have a fake fight with Thor that ends with him thinking he has defeated Loki, so he can take Loki back to Asgard. Why would Loki and Thanos want to get S.H.I.EL.D. and other earthlings involved in the scheme? Even if they don’t see humans as a risk, why would they want any outsiders to find out more about their plan than what is absolutely necessary? If they got only Thor involved, no one else would know anything about what’s going on. Also, if Thanos knew the Chitauri would eventually be defeated, why would he risk alienating his allies by letting them be killed in masses? Why get the Chitauri involved in the first place, when the same end result could’ve been reached without them?
Yes, this. Any good planner knows that you don’t complicate your plans any more than you absolutely have to, because the more complicated your plan becomes, the more things can and WILL go wrong. Plus, a less-destructive plan would be more likely to land Loki a “slap on the wrist” punishment than what he ended up doing in the movie.
Sorry to be a pedant, and this was a really well written post that blew my mind, but Loki didn’t use a Xanatos gambit here. As it says on the tropes page, it’s only a Xanatos gambit when all outcomes benefit the creator, but only a very specific outcome benefitted Loki. If the Avengers would have lost to the chitauri, for example, Loki’s plan to return to Asgard would have failed.
Otherwise thankyou for further cementing my faith in Joss Whedon.
Wrong. If Loki had won, he would have had the Tesseract and the portal device to get back to Asgard, and a huge army to help him do whatever he wanted once he got there. Him losing to the Avengers was simply the BETTER way to win, as it meant the Chitauri would have no further hold over him.
I don’t know what his plans are/were but Loki is smart. He won’t help Thanos unless there is something he can gain from it but I don’t think he is just going to break down and confess to his brother and father who he hates. What I want to know is what happened to Loki once the Chitauri found him after his fall from the bifrost.
Spoiler alert my ass. lol I find your idea to be pathetic. The epitome of simple minded pondering, from a big loser
Get a job and move out of mommy’s basement, all of you!
I love the theory 🙂
I hope Loki has big schemes within schemes.
One possible hole in the “Loki wanted the Chitari to Lose” theory.
Loki personally threw Tony Stark (not wearing the Iron Man suit) out of Stark Tower. This sure looked like a genuine attempt to kill Tony Stark.
The Chitari hit New York, 30 seconds after this. If Loki wanted the Avengers to beat the Chitari, killing Iron Man before the fight starts seems like a big leg up for the Chitari.
Granted, perhaps Iron Man was not necessary for Loki’s plan. Perhaps after Loki realized he could not possess Tony (arc reactor got in the way of his brain washing stick) he thought Tony was a liability to his master plan.
Loki’s staff did have the ability to disable portal machine after-all… Perhaps, even if many Avengers died in the battle, he could have still disabled the portal device staging a “false victory” for our heroes.
One more thing. Guess where that scepter is going? That’s right. Odin’s Treasure Vault. Now, Thanos and company can obviously access the scepter. It, the tesseract, and the Infinity Gauntlet are all going to be in one convenient place. Sounds like a huge SCORE for the bad guys.
yeah not gonna happen, watch Captain America: the winter soldier
apparently (I haven’t seen it myself because I haven’t bothered too) in the scene revealing Thanos, he has the infinity gauntlet. I think that makes an error in your plan.
I’ve seen it twice, and Thanos does not have it at that time. The gauntlet is only shown while Loki is in Asgard, wandering around Odin’s Treasure room.
If you are right, and if Joss Whedon sees this, he will rewrite the next movie so you are wrong and then create a character that has your name in order to kill you.
None of that certainly occurred to me, but I loved reading this! If you turn out to be right, hats off to you sir!
The Avengers had so many continuity errors it was ridiculous. First of all Thor (film) shows Asgardians to be ancient beings who were worshipped as Gods, in many ways they are, Odin has unlimited magical powers, Dwarves made Thors hammer in a neutron star “in that heart of a dying star”… they have Thor being immensley strong (like he should be as he is strongest of the asgardians)…Loki has obviously learned of his Frost Giant heritage in Thor when the Jotun grabs his and the plot of hor ensues due to Loki’s machinations.
Avengers – Thor flies onto plane, grabs Loki flies away – cut to scene where Thor has thrown Loki onto a mountainside – Almighty landing from 30,000ft Loki pretty much shrugs it off. Next Ironman flies in with comedic timing and grates Thors face off the mountainside. They land and Thor and Ironman are portrayed as being of near equal strength. (Why? when every comic has shown Ironman to be so far below the strength of Thor, who knows? Oh wait, its because Loeb and Quesada Love Hulk – depower Thor and Hulk Looks better. Also to the layman who remembers Thor being a God, Ironman comes off well thus Ironman 3 keeps making the big bucks, Ironman is the character that started the Marvel movies afterall.)
Then it’s Hulk versus Thor…Thor has a few punches and a fairly underwhelming Mjolnir uppercut which Hulk just casually brushes aside and rips apart a plane. Then its scene where Thor is being thrown around. Cuejetfighter shooting – Hulk is impenatrable to the bullets but Thor has to dive out the way? WHY? no earthly weapon can harm Asgardians in any continuity. Next Hulk falls 30,000ft only to have no damage to himself. Thor gets trapped in a glass cage. His mighty mallet cant break the glass, nor can he somehow not blow it up with lightning, “the humans think us immortal, shall we put it to the test?” – Eh why have a character who can fly if he cant land from height and survive? Ironman is a man in a metal suit, if anyone here isn’t stupid then you will no Force would mean Ironman would die from falling from height. Hence the executive toy with the balls works, force travels equally. So Thor falls, and bursts out and lands causing a crater in the earth – yes he survices but its made out that if he was in the container he wouldve died – WHY? DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. Even if this were the ultimate version of Thor wearing 616 style clothing – he wouldnt have been hurt. He’s like the most powerful out of everyone and only Hulk is stronger (with rage).
Even Loki ends up being relatively better at fighting than Thor and in similiar levels of strength. The whole Hulk versus Thor was underwhelming and effectively cancelled any further bouts, especially with the Hulk punch on thor after working together – again a laugh at Thors expense it was hilarious). Thor the movie made more money than the two Hulk films – but Loeb and Quesada and other powers that be suck the green cock, simples.
So to even discuss the machinations of loki’s plan, strategy, whatever is ridiculous because it could change instantly, since they change everything else.
Its a movie based on a comic book, with a huge green invincible jade giant. yet theyre trying to base it in “reality”…why not just make the characters properly like how we loved them to begin with. People dont buy comics then say ” Thats fake, science says”… its escapism.
Why change what Stan Lee and Kirby made? Ludicrous.
Also, are all earth humans who the avengers know, Astro physicists?
Ironman – one of the coolest with the best HUMAN technological armour.
Thor- GOD of Thunder to the Norse – none of this “lets appease stupid Americans, ‘theyrs only one god man and he doesnt dress like that’ bullshit again. Most Powerful being in the Avengers and probably in the nine realms besides Odin.
Loki – GOD of Lies and Mischief – Machiavellian plotter and deciever – seeks revenge on Thor – strength greater than any human minus Hulk.
Hulk – Strongest there is. Though as Hulk pretty stupid and strength realies on Rage and staying angry. Friend or Foe depending on circumstances.
Black Widow – Hawkeye nothing but very good human assassins.
Captain America- Strongest human alive besides hulk with a physicality that means hed be the best Olympics athlete ever, can take a good pummeling but would be squashed by the Gods. Expert tactician.
How hard is it to keep that continuity – it being the same in 616 and Ultimates? only storylines a minor character changes in Ultimates – such as Cap being more aggressive and Hawkeye being asian and Black widow going out with Stark etc. Very monor changes.
Avengers and previous Marvel films I have loved because its the heroes you love on screen – but lets keep them how we love them.
AVENGERS – most poorly written film but still awesome.
This, I believe is THE review that describes what I think. Mean you look at it, Loki could have put more of a fight, but for him the end goal was to return to Asgard.
Reblogged this on Scripts and Things.
Noone remembers Colston’s last remark about how Loki was going to lose? “You lack conviction.” Loki needed a ride back to home and he made some deals to get him there. He got home, and all of the chaos that he sowed was essentially a bonus.
Interesting insight! When I first watch Avengers (never read the comics though), I thought the storyline was too shallow and there’s so much questions were left unanswered. I know there’s so much more to the story, but I’m not smart enough to speculate this deep. You, sir, made my week!
Your article was very interesting, except I really don’t agree that it was a true Xanatos Gambit. You see, if Loki had actually won and conquered earth (which was possible) that actually would have been bad for him.
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It is nice to see someone else shares the same ideas! I’ve pondered this since I saw the post credit scene in Thor all the way through the events of The Avengers. Now I also have written proof and my word to convince wary ‘Avenger won’ arguers. I shall win the argument yet! Can’t wait for Thor 2 and Avengers 2, gotta see more Loki. Nice job explaining it all! Definitely bookmarking the link.
I agree with Loki losing on purpose, but I think that Loki’s inner desire is to be seen equal to Thor to Odin. He feels betrayed and outcasted by the one person he wanted to impress (Odin), which you can see by watching Thor. I think this entire take over Asgard plan is an act of anger towards what he found out in Thor. Number one, he never got the same attention and favoritism as Thor did from Odin since they were kids and Number two Loki finds out that he was stolen from another realm (an any realm of Asgard) and that he is not even of Asgardian blood. He has been lied to and outcasted his whole life really. That is why I think he really wants to try to take over Asgard, ( he even admits this in the movie Thor, when he is fighting Thor right before they break the Bifrost) Any one agree with me, or am I just crazy?
Just adding to what I was saying….I think his plan is an act of anger…because the ending scene in Thor was clearly Loki’s starting point. When you see Loki let go of that spear at the end of Thor, he lets go of Asgard, he lets go of Asgard and his need for that place and his attachment and need for the affection and respect of Odin and his brother, and thats when this whole plan comes to life. He does want to take over Asgard and the take over Earth plan WAS meant to fail. Cant wait to see what happens with that story, especially with Thanos coming to get him.
Hi. ^^ I really enjoyed to read your article it gave me another viewpoint of the movie. And… this interview tends to approve that there is something more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGmlkBu6Xko&list=LPKHYTUrNmhno&index=10&feature=plcp
I’ve heard a few rumors that Loki is going to be taking a semi-heroic role within Thor 2. If that movie picks up after his capture, it would make sense that he’d “redeem” himself to Asgard so that Thor and Odin let their guard down. Then somewhere near it’s end or the next movie he’d shift his attention to something like the gauntlet.
My God! ….I mean Gods.
I just hope that Loki is secretly a good guy playing a very long game to draw Thanos out where he can be killed. He did it to the King of the Frost Giants. If it turns out that he’s working to destroy a dire threat to the universe and is not afraid to harm people and take the blame to make it happen the movies would be better for it.
“Very Good Writing – Why Loki Won in The Avengers
The Mask of Reason” was honestly enjoyable and instructive!
In modern society honestly, that is very difficult to manage.
I am grateful, Franchesca
I guess Asgardian punishment is quite more tolerable than Thanos’ anyway. Loki knows to choose his fights.
But the punishment will be severe, Odin didn’t take this little baby jotun because he felt pity, took him because he is the Ragnarok bringer. Odin didn’t lose his eye in battle, he sacrified his own eye for wisdom. He knows Loki’s fate. As Odin always does when he finds some great weapon, he does not destroy it, he locks it up safe in his vault where he can keep an eye on it. Use it, if need be. The Casket of Ancient Winters? Surtur’s Flame? The Warlock’s Eye? Why not Laufey’s son, the bringer of Ragnarok? (Mercurie words). Loki is a stolen relic indeed.
Now, which are his plans for Thor 2: the Dark World. I don’t know, maybe neither he knows… But I’m looking forward to November!
loki is thors step brother not half brother
He’s not his step brother either. He’s his adopted brother. Like it matters.
Reblogged this on That's Geektastic!.
Reblogged this on My Blog.
Oh my god, this is just UNF! I had chills while I was reading it and it’s just so awesome! And I love the connections!
Well, it sure likes like all your Asperger Kid speculation adds up to nothing, from what I read about the new Thor movie. This is how its always been and always will be with comics – it’s just a bunch of stuff that happens, because they have deadlines to fill, and payrolls to be met. In the very unlikely event that the director had a larger story arc in mind, it by necessity goes by the wayside when new creatives are brought on – just like in the paper versions. I think a way more interesting topic of discussion would be “Is the extension of building life around adolescent power fantasies long into adult life reflected in our blanket acceptance of a ubiquitous and absolutist national “security” state?
The two things seem to go together. The superhero genre has peaked in the past, during times of war – now, after appearing to be on the way out all-together, these fuckers are more popular than ever, particularly among adults – even as we enter into an era of perpetual war in the vain attempt to prop up failing empire. Now that would be something interesting to talk about.
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Wow. Very interesting. When you put it that way, I guess Loki really is the Trickster God he’s thought of to be– especially since the way he was ‘fooled’ by Black Widow’s emotions, Hawkeye’s explosive arrow, etc. actually bugged me. I also like how you could see a smirk behind Loki’s muzzle at the end (I sure didn’t).
Now that the teaser trailer for Thor: The Dark World is out, we’ll eventually see if whether or not Loki will betray his adoptive brother like he was warned not to do.
* “betray his step-brother,” if that makes more sense… ^^;
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The only thing I disagree with is Loki wanting to rule Asgard. I think Loki actually said what he meant for once: He never wanted to be anything but Thor’s equal. And respected for what HE brought to the table, even if it wasn’t bashing in heads.
Thor is a great warrior but he wasn’t, and based on the arrogance and brashness we see in The Avengers, isn’t fit to be king of anything but fighting and screwing. That Odin would put him on the throne regardless and then regale him at the end of Thor as a good king is more telling than anything else that Loki has every reason to be pissed the eff off.
Now if there’s any acknowledgement of any of that or the insane racism running rampant in Asgard that would make Thor think it was perfectly okay to do any of the things he does in the beginning of Thor I’ll be shocked.
But I won’t be holding my breath.
I really don’t understand why people are interested in this guy’s theory. Folks, this is a guy who is unconcerned about US spying on the citizens of the world, because apparently he thinks SHIELD is real. this is a guy who has had his head up Stan Lee’s ass for so long he can’t tell reality from comic books. Folks, go out for a walk. Read some real literature. Learn something about politics. Fix a delicious meal and eat it. Superheroes don’t exist. The real world does.
vwikiuzzthdf
Sorry, but Loky will not be in Avengers 2. JS is not the genius you thought 😉
http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=37829
Sorry, but Loky will not be in Avengers 2. JW is not the genius you thought 😉
http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=37829
Good thing there’s gonna be an Avengers 3, huh?
http://www.hypable.com/2013/06/20/its-official-robert-downey-jr-will-play-iron-man-in-avengers-2-and-avengers-3/
Long game is long. Three whole phases long.
Very descriptive article, I loved that bit.
Will there be a part 2?
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This hypothesis has never really made a lot of sense to me.
Why would Loki ever consider giving an item that granted the wearer complete control of reality to someone like Thanos, whom we know has threatened Loki with death if he failed and who is implied to have possibly tortured him to gain his cooperation? If Loki knows what the gauntlet does, then he should know there would be absolutely nothing he could do if Thanos decided to renege on his end of the deal.
Why would Loki NOT just use the gauntlet for himself instead, and create a “perfect” world where he was Odin’s favorite son and wipe Thanos out from existence? He can’t be very fond of Thanos, given that he didn’t exactly treat him very nicely. (Assuming Loki’s goal was to get the gauntlet in the first place, which I still find rather doubtful.)
Loki also couldn’t know for sure that his punishment would be “a slap on the wrist,” particularly not when A: Odin banished Thor from Asgard for less, and B: Thor and Odin both seem to consider protecting Earth to be serious business.
Finally (as pointed out earlier) everything Loki did in The Avengers is needlessly complicated if his goal was only to return to Asgard. A good planner doesn’t complicate things more than they need to be, because that only creates more opportunity for things to go wrong. Good planning isn’t about setting complicated plans that rely on a very specific course of events to work into motion, but rather about taking advantage of what you have in front of you right now and adapting yourself and your plans to new and unexpected events so that they ultimately serve you/your long-term goal, or at the very least don’t cause too much damage to it.
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Malekith is the big unknown in Thor 2. Obviously he’s the villain, but from the trailer (on YouTube now, BTW) he and Loki have some history together. It’s not clear whether they were allies or enemies, but Thor seems to need Loki’s help to fight the Dark Elves. The Brothers Odinson seem back on relatively friendly terms, and Loki is walking around Asgard – apparently with Thor tasked to watch him. So, not the World Tree by any means, not even a cell.
This is mostly inference from a minute or less trailer, so I could be wrong, but it looks like Loki is going to team up with Thor for most of the movie and fight Malekith. But OF COURSE all this is just a step in his master plan…
But what about Thanos? He apparently won’t be in Avengers 2, which has been subtitled ‘Age of Ultron’. And the post-credits scene in Iron Man 3 was no help at all. Does anyone have an idea about this??
Loki will destroy Thanos, just like he killed Laufey.
He is still trying to prove himself, by being THE LEFT HAND OF GOD.
In Truth…God does not need to destroy. Chaos cannot conquer Cosmos…but it devours the Twiilight….& Loki wades deeply in it.
ODIN is not The Creator of Creators & Creation….in both The Series & The Edda’s.
To sum: Loki is looking for place in The Hall.
don’t you people find any similarities between AVENGERS and THE DARK KNIGHT…in dark knight joker gets caught on purpose to cause the explosion on arkham jail so that inmates gets free and start their attack, in avengers loki gets caught and to cause explosion on the flying machine so that hulk destroys everything. avengers is just a lighthearted copy of dark knight
No, Joker got caught on purpose so he could sit down with Batman and give him the choice of saving either Dent or Rachel and so he could capture Lao. His escape had nothing to do with freeing the other inmates. Those other inmates were probably charcoal.
And Loki wanted to get caught so he could divide and distract the Avengers and embarrass them in front of the whole world. Tony and Cap have an ENTIRE conversation about that.
Also, The Dark Knight was not the first film to display the villain getting caught on purpose just to later end up escaping.
I’ve been too easy on you nerds. You’re really wasting your time here, and it’s not time well wasted. Assuming that Whedon intended all this (dubious) it will get muddled up by all the other people who are involved the the various Marvel movies. But the more serious problem is that while you are obsessing over your fantasy world, the real world is going to hell. The author of this blog not much after he wrote this piece wrote about why he isn’t concerned about the NSA and their fascist agenda. How could he say something so boneheaded? Easy, it’s the indoctrinating influence of comic books, he thinks the government spy program is run by somebody like Samuel L. Jackson.
More evidence that Dr. Wortham, dedicated social reformer and anti-fascist was right. Nobody likes reformers; just as they say Ralph Nader is arrogant and crazy to think he has a right to run for public office against sane, humble, public spirited politicians like Dubya, Obomba,and Frankenstein Kerry (and the Corvair was a great little car, much worse that Nader metaphorically killed it than the fact that it killed real people) that awful Dr. Wortham was wicked for playng a role in toning down the horror and crime comics that preceeded the code comics that we all grew up with.
At any rate, it’s clear from this discussion that people who spend all their in comic books loose the ability to think clearly, and develop mindsets that are tolerant, approving, even, of authoritarian exercise of power.
Wake up, people! Start thinking for yourselves!
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With Thor: The Dark World’s conclusion… I can say we’re probably going onto a very familiar direction here.
I came back here to re-read this after I saw Thor 2 and this idea is still very relevant, great job
After THOR 2. it seems to me LOKI has certainly won. Reason being he made THOR leave Asgard making Asgard vulnerable to whatever. most likely Thanos.
I don’t really agree with this analysis and the reason why is Loki said why he did what he did in Thor 1, to prove to his father he was a worthy son and that he only wanted to be Thor’s equal. I think Avengers was really Loki’s way of proving he was worthy to be king of something, anything. All through out Thor 1, Avengers and Thor 2, I saw real pain in Loki caused by mass rejection from his father, family and citizens. That kind of mass rejection can mess with anyone. He believed he was a monster as everyone defined the Ice Giants as monsters and he was an ice giant, which meant he was a monster. In one moment, Loki’s world crumbled when he discovered his true identity: Monster. Someone said on youtube the person who hates Loki the most is Loki. Remember when Black Widow called Loki as Monster? He said, no you brought the monster on board as if to say, you brought me, the monster, on board. This is your fault, not mine. When she said, you mean Banner, Loki said, what?? As if to say, didn’t you hear one word I said? As she is leaving, Loki watches her go as if to say, wait, listen to me!! He didn’t act as if someone who had a plan exposed, but as a child trying say, please help me. It’s these little things that i picked up that made the writer in me go, huh. There’s hundreds more thrown throughout all three movies that are just as deep.
THere’s a scene on Avengers where Thor grabs Loki off the plane and takes him to a mountain to try to talk some sense into him. Thor puts his hand on the back of Loki’s neck and asks him to come home. Now the scene is quick and a fan slowed down that scene on youtube. Tom Hiddleston reveals what Loki is going through in a split second. It’s super fast. But the facial expressions say, I want to come home, I miss you and I love you, but I can’t b/c you’re suffocating me. I can’t breath. When i’m with you, I feel like i’m dying. Then he goes into the Shakespearean speech about he doesn’t know where the teccerant is located. Remember when Loki found out his mother died? He was heartbroken to the point he destroyed his cell. My friend’s son said to me as we were watching the movie, look at the claw marks on the walls. Loki was so upset, he clawed at the walls. That is real pain and no one can fake it. Loki’s words to Thor were, did she suffer? He was worried his mamma suffered before she died. That’s genuine. Tom Hiddleston also said: The opposite of Love is not hate, but indifference and Loki is not indifferent to Thor, but hates Thor which means underneath Loki still loves Thor. Loki loves and adores Thor and sometimes I think Loki was at one time Thor’s hero, but the messages got crossed. Loki still adores Thor and longs to be his equal, not below him. (Handing out tissues to everyone.)
Also the Teccerant seemed to have some kind of control over him. Remember when he and Thor were fighting on Stark Tower? THor almost got through to him in saying we can stop this. Loki looked around as if shocked as to what was happening. Some even saw Loki’s eyes change color from dark blue to light blue, then back to dark blue again. The teccerant gave him the courage and hatred that he needed to take over earth.
It seemed to me that all his speeches were directed to himself, not to others. He was reaching out for help, but no one listened. I think all that rejection pushed him over the edge. Now, yes, in Thor 2, Loki did fake his own death and apparently killed Odin to get the throne. He proved to his father and Thor that he deserved it. There’s a quick scene at the end of the movie when Thor is facing his ‘father’ who is really Loki. Thor says despite Loki insanity, he died with great honor. Loki/Odin gives Thor a funny look as if to say, really? Seriously, you think I’m honorable? It’s just for a flash. what these movies gave me, as a writer, is insight into a character’s despair, which is deep for a character. It’s something I’m giving a lot thought to and am wanting to incorporate into my novels. The movies turned Loki, who was written as just a simple bad guy, into a kind of anti-hero which everyone seems to love as everyone has experienced rejection. The writers left a lot of untied threads regarding Loki especially since Thanos probably isn’t too happy that Loki failed and wants revenge. That’s a thread that has to be addressed and I’m hoping someone does address it and not leave it hanging as it will drive my writer’s nerves bonkers. 🙂
You called it!
I had to come back here after seeing Thor 2, ’cause way back I though your interpretation was really fun but they’d never end a movie with Loki on the throne or anything like that. HOW WRONG I WAS. Kudos to you.
I personally see Loki not so much the huge mastermind planner type and more spontaneously adapting to any situation and twisting unfolding events to his benefit. Less Xanatos-gambit maker and more Xanatos-speed-chess player. As such I don’t know if Loki had all this in mind before getting to Earth in Avengers. Thanos, though, I would easily believe had all this in mind when he sent Loki to Earth(without Loki aware of it) with Loki ending up on top in Asgard and seriously owing Thanos. None of this lessened my appreciation of this post a year ago, and it only gets better with the corroboration of the new film.
The great thing about Loki is he’s such a wild card and he plays things so mischievously that he can be cannonically interpreted in very different ways without breaking form. Tom Hiddleston’s portrayal of Loki holds true Whether he plans things or just takes advantage of moments as they arise.
If both Loki and Thanos want Asgard that badly, then why would they work together?
Great post.
I was actually thinking something similar watching the Marvel Agents of Shield -Yes Man episode.
Loki has been the central villain of all of the Marvel movies. He appears in Iron Man 2, Thor, Thor 2, and Avengers.
One bizarre move i do not understand yet is why he had one of the cosmic gems sent to the collector.
Understanding his moves as he pretends to be Odin are now likely what is driving the universe forward toward Thanos.
I do agree with all of the ideas you’ve offered on your post.
They’re really convincing and will certainly work. Still,
the posts are too short for newbies. May just you please prolong them a little from next time?
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Reblogged this on omegaCarotene and commented:
I generally tend to be quite selfish with my blog, using it mainly for my own creative output: i.e. art&design and various ramblings about games, design, and…stuff~
Yet, having only recently watched the Avengers (yes, from 2o12) and also having found this post both an entertaining read and a rather well-written argument, i’ll make an exception~ 🙂
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did someone noticed that this theory made a lot more sense now after The Dark World? just see what happened in the end of the movie…
Lol yah Teempest, after seeing thor 2 I had the same thought. It appears this theory might have indeed been in the cards for awhile lol.
Not sure if anyone has said this yet but in Thor Loki has green eyes, whereas in the Avengers his eyes are blue, the colour that all the brainwashed agents eyes turn after Loki brainwashes them. Maybe Loki is just a puppet… maybe Thanos is pulling the strings!
There is a problem with this theory. After taking over Asgard from Odin, Loki ordered Lady Sif and Volstagg to deliver the Aether to the Collector. Why? Especially if he had easy access to the Gauntlet and the Tesseract?
Maybe he doesn’t want to get his ass beat by Thanos who is collecting all the infinity gems (aether is supposed to be one of them) and the gauntlet.
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I believe Loki is MCU villain. With everything that has happened I believe was all loki’s fault and doing.
I agree. But I think he wanted revenge on Odin first. Also, Coulson noticed that Loki lacked “conviction” to carry out the takeover. And Loki didn’t know any of the Avengers (except Thor) before the movie, since he had to ask Barton who they were. Whichever Earth army formed to stop him would fit into his plan. My question is: why was he so exhausted after arriving on Earth? He stumbled, and was sweating- he must have been tortured, because there’s no way that portal hurt him more than a Hulk-smashing.
Except joss whedon confirmed there are two gauntlets in the MCU and the one in the vault is still there…. Thanos always had his.
What Thanos doesn’t have in his gauntlet are ALL of the stones. He needs the stones on the one in Asgard’s vault to have all the power he desires. That’s why he is using Loki.
okay so here’s my theory on something:
firstly thanos is out to get death right!
well in thor 2 we see loki shifting into other characters, such as captain america!
this has lead me to think, what about death?
surely he could change into death and then wallah kill thanos! or something!
I’m not a big marvel nerd really but i just thought this was quite interesting that i picked up on!
like if thanos believes loki is death then he trusts, would do anything, idk but someone come up with something pls 🙂
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My prefered version of this theory is that he wanted the Avengers to team up so that they could beat the Chitauri and he could get out from Thanos’ grip, and back to Asgard where he could rule.
There are two explanations either he is a villain or hero in disguise.He got the throne but. just like the first time around he wouldn’t be King for long(Dr.Strange end credits).His motives are too contradictory.He hands over the gauntlet to Thanos but sent the reality gem to the Collector.I believe he gave the gauntlet to Thanos to get him off his back.If Thanos tortured Loki then surely Loki wont just accept his humiliation without retaliation.Alas the point is moot Loki isn’t returning for the infinity wars anyway
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he’s working for Thanos. Loki is a chess player.
Now Finally. Did Loki want to lose in Avengers? Back in 2012 it did seem like so. In 2018, I don’t think so. But Probably. From what I got from Infinity War, Loki did not look as if he was working for Thanos as partners. Loki was against Thanos. Or Maybe Loki is tricking us again. Bottom-line is this I don’t think Loki purposely loss in avengers 1, it now felt like a legitimate loss.
Love this theory, Andrew!
You should submit it in our “Most Fascinating Movie Interpretations” thread over at Proove. Check it out:
https://proove.org/thread/31f3a3ca-3204-45fe-84df-fca74132cbae?referal=f67b68f6-f225-4e88-8504-c5a9644ef044
What’s cool about this discussion is that whoever submits the top-voted theory is actually earning money. It’s part of an effort to reward all us Internet people for the valuable content and commentary we provide.
This post is a perfect example!
If you have any questions, just send me a note. Hope to see you there!
-Sam
This would have been so much better than what Endgame did, with Thanos having been clueless as to the location of the Mind Stone when he gave the scepter to Loki…